Melting of Wheat pennies!!!
CoinKing1969
Posts: 350
I have heard some people that are selling their old wheat and copper memorials to scrap yards for melt. I know copper is high but what does this do for collectores?
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Comments
WS
The name is LEE!
the availability of any date. It's certain that even if almost everyone had
these melted there would be mere handfuls of the scarce dates destroyed.
Don't look for a shortage even twenty years after the ban has been lifted.
None of the memorial coppers will be made tough either but fewer of these
in many cases were set aside so some would be harder to find. It still will
be a relative thing. Everyone won't melt his cents so the memorials will be
available among those.
<< <i>Read it and weep! >>
Great information!! But there are alot that do not know or care about this law. Once melted, forever gone.
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<< <i>Read it and weep! >>
I don't like where this is heading. Since when does the US Mint have the authority to enact such a "rule" (law) ?
Did Congress actually vote on this, and did the President actually sign it into law ? If not, the so-called new "rule"
about melting/exporting cents and nickels is not legitimate.
<< <i>There was a law passed that made this a no no.
This law is virtually impossible to enforce. Once the cents are melted, the evidence is destroyed.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Is this happening with nickels yet? >>
Nickels are far more difficult to melt and are far less useful to
most people who would do this on a small scale. While neither
is probably being destroyed to much of an extent, there may
be a ton of pennies for every pound of nickels.
It's a safe bet a little bit of zinc is being treated the same way.
<< <i>
<< <i>Read it and weep! >>
I don't like where this is heading. Since when does the US Mint have the authority to enact such a "rule" (law) ?
Did Congress actually vote on this, and did the President actually sign it into law ? If not, the so-called new "rule"
about melting/exporting cents and nickels is not legitimate. >>
So are a lot of other rules and laws Daniel but that does not mean that the US Government will not enforce them!
This business about melting pnnies for their copper and nickels for their nickel content comes up every now and again. The truth of the matter is that to make any type of measurable profit, you'd have to have tons and tons of coin for melting especially since it is marketed by the ton and not the cent! Scrap metal dealers would be subject to losing their business licenses if they were caught melting us coinage or exporting it for melting. I don't think many would actually take the risk!
Melting multiple tons of cents would have an impact and the US Government wants to discourage as many people as possible from doing so. Besides, copper would have to go up considerably to net any type of profit other than I've got 100 pennies that are worth $2.00!
The name is LEE!
What the heck is a Mint rule?
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<< <i>
I don't like where this is heading. Since when does the US Mint have the authority to enact such a "rule" (law) ?
Did Congress actually vote on this, and did the President actually sign it into law ? If not, the so-called new "rule"
about melting/exporting cents and nickels is not legitimate. >>
There are hundreds of thousands of federal laws and rules and regulations with
the effect of law. In all societies it has been the great accumulation of such det-
ritis that has accumulated and eventually hamstrings everyone. Most can't even
be interpreted without a lawyer because terms and interpretations evolve. Many
simply fall by the wayside and are not enforced but are rarely if ever removed from
the books. New problems just result in new layers of rules and regulations so if
schools or anything don't work then a lot more law gets passed. New business is
stifled because it's overly expensive to even find out what laws apply much less
attempt to obey them all.
You can find most of them here, but there are still layer opon layer of regulations issued by
government departments, states, counties, and municipalities. One nice thing a-
bout most modern laws is that they are written in English so they can be under-
stood. You'll still need a lawyer or someone familiar with the facts to interpret most
of them.
<< <i>Actually, there is more copper in Nickels than there is in wheat pennies. >>
Sure. They have more copper but "cost" five times as much.
The true cost in either case is the jail time, and it's a safe bet they do intend to
enforce these laws for the time being.
nickel all in one coin.
Jerry
<< <i>Copper pennies are going for over 2x face on Ebay.
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Outstanding.
in small quantities is about $2.00/lb., in tons it may be higher, but at an
added effort and expense.
<< <i>It wouldn't be worth the effort to melt cents, the scrap value of copper
in small quantities is about $2.00/lb., in tons it may be higher, but at an
added effort and expense. >>
All you need is access to large quantities. You can separate them using
inertial separators or just melt them all and sell the zinc at a slight loss.
You're right, of course, that postage rates and shipping costs will eat up
almost any potential profit if dealing in small quantities.
<< <i>
<< <i>There was a law passed that made this a no no.
This law is virtually impossible to enforce. Once the cents are melted, the evidence is destroyed. >>
I never thought of that. Good point.
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
Today less than 2 out of 10 in circulation are copper.
<< <i>Billions of copper cents have already vanished.
Today less than 2 out of 10 in circulation are copper. >>
That sounds about right.
Most of these have enterred the garbage stream and are in landfills now. Many billions
more have been burned, flooded, or tossed into wishing wells or Niagra Falls.
<< <i>Billions of copper cents have already vanished.
Today less than 2 out of 10 in circulation are copper. >>
Just curious, where did you get your statistics?
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I am keeping the copper ones aside with the rest I've kept over the last few years and coinstaring the zincs for an Amazon gift certificate.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
<< <i>
<< <i>Billions of copper cents have already vanished. Today less than 2 out of 10 in circulation are copper. >>
Just curious, where did you get your statistics?
The stats were derived from a search of 1982 cents of which there are 7 varieties of zink and copper.
We were trying to determine the percentage of each variety minted. All 1982 cents
suddenly dropped to about zero in 05 and 06. At the same time all copper cents of previous
years fell in number.
This led to several conclusions:
#1 - The zink 82s were being hoarded as coppers and tossed into the same lot.
#2 - The Lincoln copper cent is the most hoarded coin in circulation today.
#3 - The US Mint along with copper scrap dealers in the US, Canada and Mexico
are melting the coins for copper and tin value.
The 20 percent figure was arrived at from the states of Indiana, Michigan and Illinois.
<< <i>I don't know where the 20% statistic has come from in previous posts, but my initial count of 2,500 circulating Lincoln cents done for The Cent Project has shown that 26.7% of the cents obtained by me in this batch were copper while the remainder were copper-plated zinc. That is pretty close to the 20% estimate given above. >>
This is really quite surprising to me.
Disregarding the billions of wheats which don't really circulate the
percentage of the mintage of copper cents is around 38%. If 26.7%
are actually in the mix then the implication is that either the survival
rate of the coppers is much higher than 20% or the survival rates of
the zinc are exceedingly poor.
The data will shed a lot of light on this question.
<< <i>Read it and weep! >>
Why just pennies and nickels?
<< <i>
<< <i>Read it and weep! >>
Why just pennies and nickels? >>
There's no profit in melting the other coinage.
<< <i>why would anyone melt wheats when the copper memorials are the same composition ? >>
The short answer is, whats the difference. Scrap dealers are not coin collectors.
Most worn wheats have no collector value and wind up in the same melting pot
with copper memorials. The copper and tin ingots can be sold for much less than
going price of the metal. Copper--$2.40 lb. Tin--$3.60 lb
<< <i>why would anyone melt wheats when the copper memorials are the same composition ? >>
Ermm...the memorials have a different composition from wheat cents after 1961. The mint removed the tin from the composition of the cent in 1962. Post-1961 cents are technically "brass" while the pre-1962 cents are technically "French Bronze". I believe the bronze planchets were used up in 1962, thus giving us a slight composition change within a single year.
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
Kinda like after the junkie takes the dope the evidence is all gone??
I don't think so!
Businesses keep records of what they do and what they've done otherwise there is no way to track profit. The smoking gun is in the records. However, if a business does choose to break the law by participating in criminal activity then its only a question of time before they get busted and served up as an example to other businesses who might consider such a venture.
For the melting of copper cents, I still believe that ion order to show any kind of profit to make the venture worth while would require a lot of coin! And I ain't referring to $50 bags, I'm referring to 50 ton quantities which is a lot of coin.
The name is LEE!
What kind of separator would work to weed out coppers vs zincs? Not that I would use such a thing...
<< <i>OK - very interesting. I've been going through rolls for years pulling out coppers -- gotta be a better way.
What kind of separator would work to weed out coppers vs zincs? Not that I would use such a thing... >>
Their greatest difference is weight.
You can pour them down a chute through moving air which would blow
the lighter zinc across a divider. you could even suspend them in a vert-
ical column of air and pull off the lighter ones at the top. you can roll them
down an inclined plane that has a little spring which gives way and steepens
the angle depositing the heavier copper under a divider. You can bounce them
off a spring loaded peg and catch the coppers which go further.
There are no doubt dozens of principles that can be used and thousands of ways to do it.
<< <i>Their is no incentive for the Gov't to enforce the law about melting. I am surpised they don't encourage it. All it does it takes $$$ out of circulation, thus allowing them to reprint new ones at zero economical impact. >>
There's huge incentive.
It costs them about 3c to replace EVERY penny that gets melted and 10c to replace the nickels.
They would come knock on your door.
They aren't worried about the people who melt a few of these
at home for art projects, use them for washers, or for fuses and
the like but they are worried about people who would melt large
quantities. I wouldn't be surprised if they are watching the coin
flow pretty closely to see any new consumption.
It's a safe bet that these are getting used but without the ban
mintages this year would be far higher.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
That didn't stop tons and tons of common date dimes, quarters and halves from being melted down. Nearly all of the resulting bars were shipped overseas.
If you can find a copy of "The Big Silver Melt" by Henry A. Merton published back in 1983, check it out.
It's a great read and gives approximate tables of which coins were taken out of circulation in large amounts. I've found his charts to be fairly accurate as I've searched through bags of 90% silver coins.
It makes the authorities back then look like the Keystone Cops, some of the stories of beefed up station wagons and the tons of silver bars being shipped in them are hilarious. Tires going flat on the highways and no jack being able to raise the car, etc.
In those days, silver was worth less than copper is today, I know, adjusted for inflation, etc. effects that equation. Still, the markup may have been small, but they made up for it with volume. Lots of volume.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if copper pennies and nickels are being melted down today. I've noticed a shortage of nickels in circulation as it is and pre '82 pennies aren't all that common either. It seems fairly clear to me that they have been removed in large numbers already.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff