Presidential Dollars composite changed again

Silverstate

Looks like Partial Lettering and weak lettering are a part of the new composites.

What do you guys think?

I still want to know what the difference is between the two and how WEAK is weak lettering.

At this rate of coins being added we will need (2) BLUE pcgs boxes per year to hold the coins.... :-)

OH...And we haven't even touched the Satin Coins of at least 8 per year...unless varieties exist in those.

Anyone find anything cool in the satin coins yet?

wondercoin

I have spoken with a number of Presidential Dollar collectors today who have little or no interest in collecting these minor errors. Are you happy Jim with buying (8) minor varieties that should have probably received "E" numbers IMHO, but, instead, got coin numbers for registry purposes? I personally conveyed to Ron Guth my feelings on the subject today. There is no way I will encourage Justin to spend one cent on these -8- minor coins (not that he would anyway). If he happens to find some in pocket change or in sealed bricks then good for him.

This comment does not include the rimless Jeffersons, which are true solid varieties for the set and although myself and Justin do not have any, we would WANT to own that significant error.

What do you feel about these -8- new required coins Jim?

Wondercoin

Silverstate

Mitch,
It's too late for me...I already paid for a set of the weak and partial lettering coins.
If someone picks up FDI, they will fill both sets.
Sometimes the NON FDI coins will come out with some higher grades given time.
However the bell has been rung, so to speak.

I was actually more surprised at the position designations.
However we don't make all of the rules.
I have some "Smoothie" Washington Dollars that I submitted that still have "E"'s on them without a registry number as they have now.

Another way of thinking is that, next year edge errors of what ever variety may come to an end If they remove all edge lettering.
So the "Edge Frenzy" will move on.
Where does that stand in congress? Then they have to remake all of the dies.

So as the sets stand now.

Weak Edge Lettering
Partial Edge Lettering
Missing Edge Lettering
Double Edge Lettering - Inverted
Double Edge Lettering - Overlapped
PLUS
The A & B Positions and First Day Issue/Non First Day Issue

.....And soon the Satins.

It's a tad hard to follow..I'm just along for the ride.

I'm really MORE Concerened that the Satin coins land in the "Presidential Dollars with Varieties" sets as a sepertate line for each coin.

Justin's set is awesome and I appreciate all of the work coin screening takes. Keep up the good work Justin.
Mitch, this really won't be that bad...Next year it will be something else to talk about.

Double Die Obv or Rev coins?
Large Date / Small Date

Time will tell..
Mitch,
Thanks for your help in finding many key coins for my set. You are really good at what you do.

Kaelasdad

As someone who has personally found and submitted some of the error coins that are now part of the Presidential FDI w/varieties set, I have to admit I am dumbfounded by the inclusion of these weak edges and light edges. These just dont have the pizazz of a coin that has no date or mintmark or motto, or the addition of more than 1 date, motto or mintmark. I know the set is named varieties, not errors, but come on. I even found 1 on my own, and i looked at it, and looked and looked some more until I can absolutely positively say that I think it might be different from the other coins in the roll....maybe. Is that worth another $200 bucks or more in a FDI holder? Nah--give me a missing edge every time. Even a kid can see that and know something just aint right.

Including these coins cheapens the set while it raises the cost of trying to complete the set.

kaelasdad

wondercoin

Jim: Thanks.

In the past (with other sets / denominations of coins), marginal varieties were either not required coins or, at a minimum, the participants in that particular registry set voted to determine which varieties should be included in the registry set. I believe this is the proper course of action with respect to the Presidential Dollars as well. And, if the majority of participants believe certain varietieis are fine for the set, then the majority has spoken.

Kalesdad - You hit the nail on the head.

Wondercoin

Silverstate

The answer is simple.
We have basic sets.
Create a Major variety set and leave the all inclusive alone.
EXCEPT you need a First Day and a NON First Day version of each set.....
If that would make everyone happy.

All of the edge lettering errors will come to an end probably early next year.
Problem will be solved.

I still am surprised at the premium a FDI holder brings today.

A Washington Rimless ms66 $200
A Washington rimless FDI ms66 $ 1500

So, I agree the set is pretty expensive in FDI holders versus the standard blue label coins.

Just add some more sets.
The lincoln cent series has numerous sets listed.
This way everyone can go for the set they like the best.

That is truly the best answer to the problem.

Silverstate

Presidential Dollar Registry Sets
As of 10/19/07
• Presidential Dollars, Circulation Strikes (2007-2016) (96)
This set is straight forward. You can have either an A or B position coin of each President and mint. Only 2 coins needed per President. This is pretty popular registry with 96 participating. 44 of which are current through Jefferson.

• Presidential Dollars with Varieties, Circulation Strikes (2007-2016) (54)
This set is a little more challenging. You need to have either an A and B position coins of each President and mint. Plus the error varieties that have surfaced. You can use a FDI or a NON FDI coin in each of the slots. This is pretty popular registry with 54 participating. 14 now have at least all the coins through Adams. At least 10 more have a few the varieties.

• Presidential Dollars First Day of Issue, Circulation Strikes (2007-2016) (58)
This set is the same as the regular circulation set except adding the FDI requirement. You can have either an A or B position coin of each President and mint. Only 2 coins needed per President. This is pretty popular registry with 58 participating. 36 of which are current through Jefferson.

• Presidential Dollars First Day of Issue with Varieties, Circulation Strikes (2007-2016) (35)
This set is the most challenging. You need to have either an A and B position coins of each President and mint. Plus the error varieties that have surfaced. Of course ALL coins need to be FDI. Some of these coins turn out to be the lower graded specimens of that particular coin, since given time better coins have surfaced in standard blue labels. This is pretty popular registry with 35 participating. 7 have shown they are collecting all varieties. 9 more show ONLY the Washington Rimless FDI and none of the Adams Varieties. The rest Do not have ANY varieties in their sets. So that’s 19 that just added this set BUT clearly at this point have only a BASIC FDI set.

• Presidential Dollars, Proof (2007-2016) (107)
This set is very straight forward. You need one coin for each president. It has 107 participants currently. 19 are tied for 1st place with Pr70dcam sets. The next 82 have 100% of the coins needed but are Pr69dcam sets.

Suggestion:
These sets, at least the varieties set could use weighting. This of course makes those that are more significant varieties or rarer, worth more or less points.

wondercoin

Jim: Why don't you propose weighting - I would love to see it.

Wondercoin

Griv

I think that the Mint had certainly made a mess of these coins and it is my hope that after 2007 the edge lettering goes away. What good is a coin that you have to have a magifying glass to see what the date is, if it's even there? I also don't see how weak edge lettering even gets a spot. The first proofs I went through had almost non-existant lettering. I don't see that as an error or a variety but just more poor work from the Mint.

Silverstate

Mitch,

I sent an email off to BJ this morning.

Weighting the sets seems to work with the Lincoln sets, why not the Presidential Coins.

We will see...

Silverstate

The funny thing about the date of these coins. With a little circulation they all become WEAK, PARTIAL or Smooth edged coins

wondercoin

Jim: You raise an interesting point about "weak lettering" / partial lettering (labeled) coins - over time, with circulation, coins become weak lettering! Which is why PCGS would have to only grade these coins if they are Uncirculated. Another reason these varieties are certainly not "major" in my view. On top of that, if the coin is placed in the gasket slightly off - the variety can not be seen at all.

But, that said, it is up to the players to decide what to do with these varietiies. From a pure business standpoint, dealers tend to make more money if they have more registry required "varieties" to sell collectors. So, if that is how it ends up, so be it.

Wondercoin

Silverstate

A email poll has been sent out by PCGS.

The offer is for Plan a, b, c, d or e

Looks like they went through and gave us lots of options.

wondercoin

BJ did a remarkable job trying to lay things out to get this Presidential Dollar series "right" from the "getgo".

I'll review the options tonight.

Wondercoin

cointime

I was reading another thread and saw Mitch's link to Justins set and thought to myself that 1st a lot of hard work went into it and next the set had way too many var/error coins for me and thought Justin must really be dedicated to take on all those slots.

Nice sets guys!

wondercoin

Ken: Thanks. Justin is putting in a great deal of time on his set - in fact, it is 11:15 p.m. on a Friday night and he even put down his video game controller to spend an hour working on 07 mint sets.

Wondercoin

bsb

SUMORADA

This is my first time and post here, some interesting stuff to be sure, I'm a big fan of the MEL coins but the "weak edge" is crap IMO, and I also I think the A & B position is kinda useless.....IMO,
I'm having a real hard time with FDI....aren't all of the GW boxes stamped "do not open til 2/15/07 FDI ? and so on with the other pres. release dates...Did we forget about first day of mintage?
If I sound harsh I'm not trying to be,I'm trying to understand the logic behind these presidential coins in the registry sets, thanks Eric

Silverstate

Has anyone noticed that there are A & B postions on the Satin Presidential Coins yet?

That makes 16 more coins guys....

pf70collector

Is there a difference between First Day Of Issue And First Day Of Mintage. Seems like NGC will get into trouble again with the label First Day Of Mintage. How do they know they were first day of mintage?

SUMORADA

These coins were taken out of the first day of mintage covers by NGC..............

Submitters alternatively have the option of having coins removed from the U.S. Mint coin cover and placed in NGC’s EdgeView™ Holder with Presidential $1 Coin label. The designation "First Day of Mintage" will appear on the label. Submitters requesting this service should use the Modern Special grading tier, and clearly write on the submission form the instruction, "REMOVE FROM COVER." The U.S. Mint Packaging is not returned, but instead is retained by NGC as proof of the designation. Also note that Tier minimum quantity requirements do apply, and submitters of fewer than five coins must use Early Bird Tier.

wondercoin

Two thumbs up to PCGS. First, they gave all the registry participants a vote on which varieties to include in the "major" variety set (the vote resulted in 2 varieties leaving the "major" set today). Second, they created a "Complete" variety set to include all PCGS coins with coin numbers, even if not deemed "major" varieties (so, no one got burned if they already bought the coins that left the major variety set). Third, BJ got this all completed (and now all 6 sets fully operation) already, including a place for all 16 SF Presidential dollars. Way to go!

FYI - I believe there is already one of the Presidential Dollar variety sets with around 44 PCGS coins needed for 100% completion of the set for just the first year of 4 Presidents!! What a challenge!!

Wondercoin.

mas3387

Mitch I am just curious as to why PCGS would require a coin such as the Jefferson week edge letter and not the Obverse / Reverse Struck through? These coins are much more exciting to look at with the really neat rays






If they are going to have a Complete Variety set why is this coin not included?

Presidential Dollars First Day of Issue Complete Variety Set, Circulation Strikes (2007-2016)

I believe I know the answer but await your reply

wondercoin

Mas - YOU COULDN'T BE MORE RIGHT!

On top of that - there is a FABULOUS Starburst Washington Dollar that has (2) Die Clashes on the Statue of Liberty side of coin (including one in her crown which looks like a large 8th Ray protruding from the top of her crown). This is a MAJOR variety in my opinion - far, far, cooler than the weak lettering and partial lettering coins.

FYI - I strongly lobbied PCGS that the Jeff weak lettering and partial lettering coins be removed entirely from the variety set as I did not feel they were MAJOR enough errors. I think a few registry collectors felt the coins might be OK as PCGS varieties (and since the coins had already been given a coin number I believe they felt it would be unfair to discard them entirely). In the end, PCGS came up with what I perceive to be a compromise position - create a second "Complete" variety set for every error PCGS gives a coin number to - even if the coins are far less exciting than the major errors. Collectors voted out the weak lettering/ partial lettering coins from the major variety set (as expected) and there we have it.

That said - there is no question in my mind that the heavy "starburst" effect / die clashed Wash Dollar would be a excellent addition to the major variety set. Maybe one day.

Wondercoin

mas3387

Like this one



Or this one



Aren't the MEL's, Week Letters, double Edge letters ALL Error Coins? Why one would be excluded especially from a Complete Variety Set. Hard to call it complete than?

wondercoin

There was no "Complete" variety set until yesterday.

Your (2) examples of that triple error are lovely. Care to lobby PCGS for the inclusion of that coin in the Major Variety set? I've got a lot on my plate these days.

Wondercoin

mas3387

<< <i>Care to lobby PCGS for the inclusion of that coin in the Major Variety set? >>



On my way

Silverstate

How many of the Washington Dollar Multiple Error Coins exist?

Is there a way to isolate the population of these?

They are pretty cool coins.
Anyone know of examples higher than ms64?

SUMORADA

I have one in ngc 65, and my partner has one also..........also have several in 64

mas3387

The Multi Error coins clearly show a nice Die Clash mark as shown in the picture above between the Dollar sign and the number 1 on the reverse side. We have handled approx 100 + of these examples and all of them show a very similar Strong Struck Thru starburst effect on the obverse and reverse. The coins with out the clash mark do not show as strong of a starburst Obv. / Rev. and tend to vary from coin to coin. The Multi error coins can easily be isolated and holdered with their own coin number by PCGS. This coin is worthy of it and should be include in the Presidential Dollar registry set. Much nicer of a coin than the weak letter coins which are required already??

PCGS want to see some examples????

Figured I’d ask here as no one at PCGS answers my E-mails including the Janitor

Hey Jim maybe you can try to get an answer from PCGS? Or wondercoin?




We have a wounded Eagle Sacagawea, Speared Bison Nickel, and Wisconsin High/Low Leaf State Quarters why PCGS would not want to answer me on the above 2007 Kennedy Half Dollar??? Spiked Kennedy? Pierced Kennedy? Guess you have to be someone to get an answer

wondercoin

Michael- PCGS just elected NOT to give a coin number to the die clashed "8th ray" Jefferson Dollar. I thought that since PCGS just formulated the "complete" variety set as an alternative to the "major" variety set that would suggest a neat error like the "8th ray" might be acceptable for the complete set. But, it wasn't. So, the chances of getting the starburst/die clashed piece likely are diminished as a result of this recent decision, HOWEVER, I, too, believe the starburst/die clash example is deserving of its own coin number.

Maybe at another time PCGS will feel differently about any coin with clashed dies getting its own coin number.

Wondercoin

SUMORADA

Silverstate

At this point. We can keep pressure on PCGS for adding all of these cool varieties to the complete sets.
I like the speared bison nickel, the starburst Washington dollar and the 8th Ray Dollar as well.

For now they can all get them graded in an "E" Holder.

If and when they change, we can reholder them with the new coin number.

I like the "Squirting Lapel" Adams Satin Finish coins too.

For the record.

I still have a handful of Washington MEL Dollars that are in "E" holders, Before they gave them their own number.

So, You never know.....

mas3387

What makes the weak edge letter so important that it gets its own PCGS coin number?? Was it because of the finder’s relationship with PCGS and who they know??? This coin can not be enjoyed in its holder, very difficult to view? Once in a PCGS holder the starburst / die clashed MEL can be held, viewed and appreciated?

Silverstate

For some reason NGC started this off.
PCGS usually follows suit.

The one cool idea is that Phil at PCGS said he would take photos of edges for an additional $5 fee.

So, It will cost $ 10 for and edge and regular pics.
At least you can see the error later on.

All of the errors are cool. Some just get lucky to get their own number.