Who had the most combined success as a player and as a manager?

Elemenopeo

My wife actually hit me with this question yesterday. The best I could come up with was Billy Martin, but I gotta think I'm missing someone. Player/manager Frank Chance of Cubs' ancient history also came to mind, but... hmmm. Anyone?

incugator

Joe Torre was pretty good, Mike Scioscia was good too, Felipe Alou would've had a championship if it weren't for the strike and he could really play. Most Good managers were catchers so their offensive numbers are going to suffer a bit. This is a good question.

vintagetoppsguy

Nobody had more combined success as a player/manager than John McGraw. He is the only one that I can think of that could have gone into the HOF as either a player or manager.

leadoff4

PETE ROSE!!

msassin

Most of them were probably turn of the century players (besides McGraw...Fred Clarke and Hughie Jennings come to mind)

jamesryanbell

<< <i>PETE ROSE!! >>



Bingo.

ElectricPrune

Mike Ditka. HOF player, won Super Bowl as head coach, assistant coach and player.

**Sorry if this was only supposed to be baseball guys** How about Red Schoendienst for bases. HOF player, head coach for 2 World Series teams and coach for at least one more I'm aware of.

vintagetoppsguy

<< <i>Most of them were probably turn of the century players (besides McGraw...Fred Clarke and Hughie Jennings come to mind) >>



I forgot about Clarke. I am changing my vote.



<< <i>Pete Rose >>



Was as awesome ball player, but only managed a little over 5 seasons and had a .525 record as a manager

FanothoseYanks

Gosh, it seems y'all are overlooking the obvious - Casey Stengel. He was on 4 pennant-winning teams as a player, (two World Champs) and batted a cool .417 in the 1923 Series. Throw in 10 pennants in 12 years as Yankee manager (7 World Champs) and I think you have the answer. Not many folks out there with nine rings....

duner

Steve Spurrier.....Heisman and NC as a coach

leadoff4

Frank Robinson comes to mind as well.

GDM67

Dusty Baker and Felipe Alou were both fine All Star caliber players and each has had stellar success as a Manager, but I think our answer is Joe Torre. A borderline HOFer as a player and a sure thing one as a Manager.

frankhardy

I would have to (without a doubt) go with John McGraw.

mikeschmidt

Babe Ruth.

I would take Babe Ruth as a player, ignore his lack of managerial skills....over any player/manager ever.

PasadenaMudSlide

Tommy Lasorda.

Salinas

McGraw. Third all-time in OBP!

grote15

If you're including football, Mike Ditka would be on that list.

Gil Hodges deserves a mention, too.

markmac

John Wooden- Player of the year in 1930 at Purdue and the greatest college coach of all time.
Lenny Wilkens
Bill Sharman

These 3 were inducted into the Basketball Hall of Fame as players and coaches.

Elemenopeo

Pretty strong cases for McGraw, Clarke, Stengel and Torre, I'd say. And, yeah, I think you'd have to have at least one World Series ring as a manager to even get on the ballot. (Though I like Ditka as a write-in candidate because... well, it's Ditka. Even though it's a different sport, you gotta go with Ditka every time.)

Thanks for the input, all. I'll pass it on to the Mrs.

BobaFett72

Lou Boudreau

MVP as a player /manager 1948, team won the world series

yankeeno7

Lou Piniella may have a place on the list...not the top but a decent one.

cravetopps

McGraw, Stengel and Torre are all great. Hard to choose between the 3 of them.

killingdream

Here is a list of guys who I think qualify as successful in both capacities :

Yogi Berra - HOF player and won 2 pennants in a seven year managerial career
Felipe Alou - Better career as player than manager but still has had a long run as a .500 or thereabouts manager.
Dusty Baker - All star caliber playing career. 1,000+ wins as a manager over a .500+ career with several first place finishes and pennant
Alvin Dark - All Star career as player. Won two pennants , one series. Above .500 and close to 1,000 wins as manager
Larry Dierker - Decent , lengthy playing career 100+ winner as a pitcher. As a manager he won division four out of the five years he managed.
Leo Durocher - HOF manager but he was a decent player too. He played 17 years was a all star 3 times and had over 1,300 hits
Jim Fregosi. All star caliber playing career. Won over 1,000 games , two divisions and one pennant as manager.
Charlie Grimm - Probably should be in HOF. Over 2,200 hits in a all star caliber career. 1,200+ wins as a manager , including 4 pennants.
Mike Hargrove - All star caliber playing career. .500 record as manager with over a thousand wins. Won 5 division titles and 2 pennants
Miller Huggins - Old time HOF manager but also had a 13 year career and nearly 1,500 hits as a player
Davey Johnson - Semi star career as a player . Well over .500 as a manager with 1,100+ wins , 5 division winners and a World Series title
Al Lopez - HOF manager but also was a all star caliber catcher for 19 years. Think Joe Torre of yesteryear.
Billy Martin - Above average player over 11 years. As a manager should be in HOF. 1,200+ wins. .553% 6 division titles 3 pennants 2 champs
John McGraw - HOF legend manager. As a player he played 16 years. Had 1,300+ hits and a .334 career average
Steve O'Neill - Underrated fellow. As manager had over a 1,000 wins , .559% and won a series in 1945. Had 17 yrs as player with 1,200 + hits
Lou Piniella - All star caliber playing career. As manager 1,600+ wins , over .500 , 5 division titles and 1 World Series title
Red Schoendienst - HOF playing career . As manager , 1,000+wins , .522% , 2 pennants , 1 World Series title
Mike Scioscia - 13 year above average playing career. As manager , 3 division titles and 1 World Series title in 8 seasons
Billy Southworth - Had above average 13 year playing career with 1,300+ hits . As manager , 1,044 wins , .597% , 4 pennants and 2 champs.
Casey Stengel - Legendary HOF manager. above average player over 14 seasons with 1,219 hits and a .284 lifetime average.
Joe Torre - Borderline HOFer as player. Definite HOF manager. 11 division winners , 6 pennants and 4 World Series titles.
Bill Virdon - Semi star playing career. as manager 995 wins and a .519% to go with 3 division titles


It's a extensive list but I think that these fellows most fit the criteria. I left out the large amount of pre WW2 player/managers who held both positions for most of their career. As for my pick of the most successful ever .... It has to be Joe Torre. Big time playig career numbers coupled with all of the great years as Yankees manager gives him the nod.

DeutscherGeist

McGraw, Stengel and Torre..... that about sums it up. HOF material as managers, but as players, I think Torre stood out more during his generation than McGraw or Stengel in theirs.

I like this discussion since I think a lot about the player/manager combo for the HOF. Since Mattingly was a borderline HOF himself and can very likely be a manager someday, he will fall in the same boat if he has success with his teams.

I can imagine Torre getting into the HOF based on his playing career and managerial career combined. Few things are more certain.

killingdream

If Torre doesn't get into the HOF through the combination of his playing and managing careers then they need to develop a new system for entry. I really do think that Torre is that much of a guarantee for hall entry.

TheCARDKid

This question actually got me wikipedia'ing rogers hornsby.

Without a doubt one of the 5 greatest hitters ever (with cobb and williams coming up in the discussion).

He led the Cards to the '26 World Series beating the yankees. The only player/coach thats hit .400 and won a world series as manager?

Ruth definitely overshadowed Hornsby in the 20's, if you take the Babe out of the equation, Hornsby absolutely dominated the decade. He lead the NL in the decade, in ba, hr, and rbi's.

GDM67

Excellent list, killingdream

Good point about Charlie Grimm.

I also want to mention that Felipe really labored under difficult constraints in Montreal, but always stayed patient and positive and often wrung blood out of a stone. No one, and I mean no one, worried me more in the 1995-onward NL East as much as his teams did, year in and year out.

rube26105

not sure but i do know that greasy neale was the first person to ever coach college fb/nfl football,and play baseball at the same time,thats pretty impressive!!!he played sophmore year at parkersburg high school in 1909, 1910 and 11 he played and coached lol,so he got off to an early start,guess thats why hes in the college and nfl hof both!!! +a hometown hero and football legend,i am going to try and get a pic of his tombstone tomorrow if i gotta climb the fence to get it,so if i get arrested again lol,its the nfl fb hof threads fault lol-im trying to get this pic for you guys!
randy

jay0791

McGraw hands down. How good was Tom Landry ??

Lou piniella was a very good player..at least good hitter. Tony LaRussa also played Lasorda played less than one year. Nellie fox was also hofer and listed as a player/coach on his 65 card
in bk wooden wins hands down also...but he was basically a college coach.
in the NBA possible hof coasches who played...phil jackson, pat riley, george karl, don nelson, and I believe bob petite.
Wilkins of course was NBA hofer as player and coach.

in HK I can think of larry robinson. Would player/owner who controls coach count....Mario Lemieux

WinPitcher

How can Ruth be considered? he never was a manager, his brief stint as asst. mgr for the Braves?

Tris Speaker comes to my mind. '
'
'

Steve


9999

Blackborder

<< <i>Nobody had more combined success as a player/manager than John McGraw. He is the only one that I can think of that could have gone into the HOF as either a player or manager. >>



That was my pick as soon as I saw the thread title.