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Interesting email I got from Centsles re: Ebay coin policy
Hyperion
Posts: 7,438 ✭✭✭
I dont think I can get myself into trouble for reposting an email I received, can I ? if so I hope this goes poof.
October 9, 2007
To: The Customers of Centsles
From: Robert Johnson, Owner, Centsles, Inc.
Many of you have e-mailed us at Centsles regarding the sudden change in the way our coins are listed for auction. Due to a recent eBay decision, eBay sellers are limited in the information that can be used in the title and description for some coin auction postings. We have been advised that this is an effort by eBay to reduce fraud and fraudulent listings. The following link will direct you to their new coin selling policy:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/selling-coins.html
As you can see under the title Some Examples, we are no longer allowed to list the certification (grading) company name, or the grade assigned, in the title or the description of the auction listing for any coins not graded and encapsulated by PCGS, NGC, NCS (owned by NGC), ICG and/or ANACS. We will still be able to list coins not graded by those 5 companies mentioned in the policy, but they will now be considered by eBay as raw/uncertified. This policy is now being enforced as of October 1, 2007.
Susan McMillan, American Numismatic Association (ANA) Consumer Awareness Coordinator has stated in the ANA press release of September 18, 2007:
In order for consumer fraud to occur, three elements must be present: a person's
desire, ability and opportunity to commit the fraud, said ANA Consumer Awareness
Coordinator Susan McMillan, We cannot control a person's desire or ability, but we
can try to remove the opportunity.
In our opinion, her statement implies that Centsles and those dealing in coins not certified by the 5 authorized companies are committing fraud. Also in our opinion, it implies that collectors and resellers of coins purchased from Centsles, and other dealers, are also committing fraud. As stated within this press release, those representing the ANA, applaud and support this decision as an improvement by eBay to protect you, the consumer, from yourself. A link to the ANA statement has been provided below for your additional clarification. Also keep in mind while reading, ANA President, Mr. Stuppler (eBay id verypq ) and ANA Acting Executive Director, Mr. Kenneth Hallenbeck (eBay id Hallenbeckcoins), both quoted in the ANA statement, are eBay Powersellers who only sell coins certified by NGC, PCGS, ANACS & ICG coins.
http://www.money.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home&Template=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=11936
In fact, the value of the coins certified by those five approved grading companies could now have the potential to have an artificially inflated cost due to the decrease in supply of available alternatives.
While we strongly disagree with eBay's new policy, we are making every effort to comply. However, it is our opinion that this policy may in fact violate antitrust laws. If you feel the same, we strongly encourage you to do some research into this question, and if convinced, contact the United States Department of Justice (DOJ). We are supplying the following link regarding the antitrust laws found at the Department of Justice website:
http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/contact/newcase.htm
It may interest you to know that some of the unauthorized grading services, eBay sellers and consumers, such as yourself, have made the effort and have already contacted the Department of Justice regarding eBay's policy. The more people to protest eBay's policy to the DOJ the stronger the demand for an investigation into the overall impact this policy will have.
If you do not feel as strongly about this as an antitrust issue, but still feel this policy is in some way unfair and unjust, please contact eBay to make your statement at: http://pages.ebay.com/help/newtoebay/questions/contact-support.html
We thank you, our customers, for your continued confidence in and support of Centsles as an eBay Powerseller!
This email was sent by: CENTSLES
PO BOX 621748 ORLANDO, FLORIDA, 32862, UNITED STATES
October 9, 2007
To: The Customers of Centsles
From: Robert Johnson, Owner, Centsles, Inc.
Many of you have e-mailed us at Centsles regarding the sudden change in the way our coins are listed for auction. Due to a recent eBay decision, eBay sellers are limited in the information that can be used in the title and description for some coin auction postings. We have been advised that this is an effort by eBay to reduce fraud and fraudulent listings. The following link will direct you to their new coin selling policy:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/selling-coins.html
As you can see under the title Some Examples, we are no longer allowed to list the certification (grading) company name, or the grade assigned, in the title or the description of the auction listing for any coins not graded and encapsulated by PCGS, NGC, NCS (owned by NGC), ICG and/or ANACS. We will still be able to list coins not graded by those 5 companies mentioned in the policy, but they will now be considered by eBay as raw/uncertified. This policy is now being enforced as of October 1, 2007.
Susan McMillan, American Numismatic Association (ANA) Consumer Awareness Coordinator has stated in the ANA press release of September 18, 2007:
In order for consumer fraud to occur, three elements must be present: a person's
desire, ability and opportunity to commit the fraud, said ANA Consumer Awareness
Coordinator Susan McMillan, We cannot control a person's desire or ability, but we
can try to remove the opportunity.
In our opinion, her statement implies that Centsles and those dealing in coins not certified by the 5 authorized companies are committing fraud. Also in our opinion, it implies that collectors and resellers of coins purchased from Centsles, and other dealers, are also committing fraud. As stated within this press release, those representing the ANA, applaud and support this decision as an improvement by eBay to protect you, the consumer, from yourself. A link to the ANA statement has been provided below for your additional clarification. Also keep in mind while reading, ANA President, Mr. Stuppler (eBay id verypq ) and ANA Acting Executive Director, Mr. Kenneth Hallenbeck (eBay id Hallenbeckcoins), both quoted in the ANA statement, are eBay Powersellers who only sell coins certified by NGC, PCGS, ANACS & ICG coins.
http://www.money.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home&Template=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=11936
In fact, the value of the coins certified by those five approved grading companies could now have the potential to have an artificially inflated cost due to the decrease in supply of available alternatives.
While we strongly disagree with eBay's new policy, we are making every effort to comply. However, it is our opinion that this policy may in fact violate antitrust laws. If you feel the same, we strongly encourage you to do some research into this question, and if convinced, contact the United States Department of Justice (DOJ). We are supplying the following link regarding the antitrust laws found at the Department of Justice website:
http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/contact/newcase.htm
It may interest you to know that some of the unauthorized grading services, eBay sellers and consumers, such as yourself, have made the effort and have already contacted the Department of Justice regarding eBay's policy. The more people to protest eBay's policy to the DOJ the stronger the demand for an investigation into the overall impact this policy will have.
If you do not feel as strongly about this as an antitrust issue, but still feel this policy is in some way unfair and unjust, please contact eBay to make your statement at: http://pages.ebay.com/help/newtoebay/questions/contact-support.html
We thank you, our customers, for your continued confidence in and support of Centsles as an eBay Powerseller!
This email was sent by: CENTSLES
PO BOX 621748 ORLANDO, FLORIDA, 32862, UNITED STATES
0
Comments
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
Proud Participant in Operation "Stone Holey" August 7, 2008
<< <i>Do I smell another lawsuit??? >>
They would not be asking you to contact the DOJ if they were serious about funding their own lawsuit. However, they are attempting to get the government to file one.
Proud Participant in Operation "Stone Holey" August 7, 2008
Trade Dollar
<< <i>Do I smell another lawsuit??? >>
I know Larry Briggs has already been making some noise about it.
<< <i>Do I smell another lawsuit??? >>
Could be.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Once you I got by the blah ... blah .. blah .. I did notice his statement:
<< <i>In fact, the value of the coins certified by those five approved grading companies could now have the potential to have an artificially inflated cost >>
AS oppesed to WHAT ???
The "artificially inflated prices" some put out on the unapproved grading companies by citing the PCGS price guide ...
"In fact, the value of the coins certified by those five approved grading companies could now have the potential to have an artificially inflated cost due to the decrease in supply of available alternatives."
<< <i>
<< <i>Do I smell another lawsuit??? >>
>>
Johnson is whistling Dixie, Teletrade has had pretty much the same policy for a long time and no one has overturned it.
<< <i>Centsles is a pretty shady dealer anyway, I always thought. Maybe they'll fade away now that they can't sell "garage-graded" coins. Check out this Trade Dollar they're selling: some say AU55, some say cleaned VF30
Trade Dollar >>
This is the type of auction that is very misleading and should be pulled. Calling out Choice Uncircluated in the title is saying a grade AUXX. This coin has absolutely no luster to be consider for AU and it has too much wear. VF30 is generous.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Do I smell another lawsuit??? >>
>>
Johnson is whistling Dixie, Teletrade has had pretty much the same policy for a long time and no one has overturned it. >>
Good point! But I think ebay will eventually be forced to come up with a application of criterias that will have the final say as to who can list and who can't. It's hard to believe that they (ebay) could assume who's legit and who's not. I don't belive it will be too long before one or two of the omitted come up with 3 certified graders as part of some agreement to relist under 3 letters again.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I cherrypicked a rare variety Seated Quarter from him a while ago, so I'm on his mailing list.
I'm not a lawyer, and I have no idea if Ebay is running afoul of the antitrust laws.
I do believe that this is just the beginning, and that the listing requirements will evolve and change for the betterment of the hobby.
The ANA is behind this, and they'll make revisions as they get flak from their members until theres a reasonable policy in place.
Ray
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
and approved repair centers into using what they refer to as genuine repair parts.
They have also warned the public that all other parts including foriegn made parts
are substandard and, in some cases, dangerous.
This seems to equate with eBay's policy of approving some grading companies
and restricting others they deem to be substandard. In view of this, eBay is
not in violation of antitrust laws.
Member SSOF
Ken
He is entitled to his opinion, but IMHO Ebay is right on the mark by targeting sellers like him.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
I just heard the worlds smallest violin playing in the background as I read it.
Feedback of over 30K... there's going to be a lot of upset Senseles buyers when it comes to resell.
I personally feel that the new Ebay policy will protect the newbies to this fine hobby by adding a bit of fraud protection... by taking out the trash.
As once bitten, twice shy...
However Ebay may not have a big enough broom to really clean up their mess?
<< <i>When Bob first started with NNC, I emailed him to ask about them. He said they'd been grading for a few years and were very good. >>
That's interesting, since he founded NNC.
Russ, NCNE
If find this statement to be misleading and patently untrue. The available alternatives have not been changed due to the refusal of ebay to accept the grading on their plastic slabs. They can offer their coins with their grade estimates embedded in the text of the auction, just like I can.
If they had maintained any grading standards within a semblance of the ANA standards, I doubt that there would be an issue. ANA has been around alot longer than they have been and has a right to endorse the TPGs that more closely follow ANAs written grading standards. Ebay has every right to enforce their own listing rules.
Am I missing something? If NNC wins, I plan to start my own NGS (No Grading Standards) company, and I'll even throw in a sticker with every purchase. Heck, my business model is already established for me.
I knew it would happen.
Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
roadrunner
Which poses the question . . . . . . .
What state does Bob Johnson as centles work out of? I'm under the impression it's WS or MI. The one time I took it in the shorts a few years
ago I believe my centles package came out of MI.
I've emailed, talked on the phone once, and helped out a Bob Johnson
that started and operates my favorite numismatic list.... www.coinsheetlinks.com I don't
believe you can find a better A - Z numismatic list on the web. This
Bob Johnson has a San Diego address. A querywhois, which he has a spot to a the coinsheet link
shows a San Diego address.
Does anybody know: Is Bob Johnson aka centles the same Bob Johnson that owns and operates coinsheetlinks?
Jerry
The crap in those NNC slabs is intentionally overgraded to play the old "overgrade by 2 or 3 points" then "sell for 1 point below the stated grade", making the hundreds of less experienced collectors think they are getting a bargain, when they are really getting screwed. The new Ebay coin policy should put a HUGE dent in this "white collar overgrading", and is a welcome change.
The Bob Johnson of Centsles is in Florida.
Edit: In fact, he's still listed with a Florida address as the registrant for the domain name nnccoingrading.com.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i><STRONG>The auto industry has been successful in ordering dealerships
and approved repair centers into using what they refer to as genuine repair parts.
They have also warned the public that all other parts including foriegn made parts
are substandard and, in some cases, dangerous.
This seems to equate with eBay's policy of approving some grading companies
and restricting others they deem to be substandard. In wiew of this, eBay is
not in violation of antitrust laws.</STRONG> >>
Except for the fact that auto makers support the dealerships and part of that relationship is that they agree to use genuine parts. Last I knew, ebay doesn't support any of the sellers on ebay.
<< <i>What I would like to know is how they got my email address. I never bought a thing from them yet I receive frequent email from them. >>
Centsles paid strong money for an EF cleaned (net graded) $20.00 ANACS slabbed coin I had on Ebay, no doubt landing in an AU58 NNC crapslab. I'm sure that is where he got my email addy.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
My take is here is a guy selling lots of overgraded third tier slab coins claiming it's his right to stick it to the uneducated collector. He seems miffed his sucker parade is getting rained on. And what really gets me is even if the grade is correct that only means it probably has been cleaned. Bravo to EBay
<< <i>I got the email also
Once you I got by the blah ... blah .. blah .. I did notice his statement:
<< <i>In fact, the value of the coins certified by those five approved grading companies could now have the potential to have an artificially inflated cost >>
AS oppesed to WHAT ???
The "artificially inflated prices" some put out on the unapproved grading companies by citing the PCGS price guide ... >>
I got the email too (he does have PCGS coins from time to time)... and I completely agree with you!
Steve
In memory of the USAF Security Forces lost: A1C Elizabeth N. Jacobson, 9/28/05; SSgt Brian McElroy, 1/22/06; TSgt Jason Norton, 1/22/06; A1C Lee Chavis, 10/14/06; SSgt John Self, 5/14/07; A1C Jason Nathan, 6/23/07; SSgt Travis Griffin, 4/3/08; 1Lt Joseph Helton, 9/8/09; SrA Nicholas J. Alden, 3/3/2011. God Bless them and all those who have lost loved ones in this war. I will never forget their loss.
1964 50c NEAR PERFECT DCAM GEM PROOF ACCENTED HAIR
<< <i>here one for Russ from Centles.... lol
1964 50c NEAR PERFECT DCAM GEM PROOF ACCENTED HAIR >>
Sleezy.
Man, that's sleezy!!
Also a few NNC's that I liked and wanted.
Super fast shipping.
NNC grading???....50/50 crapshoot.
IMHO???.....a very reputable eBay seller with a generous return privledge.
Main point here: Honest seller, let the buyer beware!!!!
G
http://cgi.ebay.com/1876-S-TRADE-DOLLAR-CHOICE-ALMOST-UNCIRCULATED_W0QQitemZ140166938413QQihZ004QQcategoryZ11977QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
"If I say something in the woods, and my wife isn't around to hear it. Am I still wrong?"
<< <i>The crap in those NNC slabs is intentionally overgraded to play the old "overgrade by 2 or 3 points" then "sell for 1 point below the stated grade", making the hundreds of less experienced collectors think they are getting a bargain, when they are really getting screwed. >>
Not to mention that these NNC slabbed coins have very often been cleaned (at least based on the photos, I've never been tempted to buy one), making that "bargain" even more of a royal screwing.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>In our opinion, her statement implies that Centsles and those dealing in coins not certified by the 5 authorized companies are committing fraud. >>
You smelt it, you dealt it.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I don't understand how antitrust laws apply to this situation. Ebay does not compete with the TPGs. >>
Last I knew, ebay doesn't compete with anybody. Ebay doesn't sell the stuff listed on its website. So then to limit it to only the top 5 (which can be argued why these 5) is really stupid. If my wife goes on ebay to buy a Gucci bag, ebay doesn't verify that each bag is or is not authentic. If they find out that you sell fakes, they'll kick you off. But they don't require proof that it is authentic. Why are coins being focused on?
( I know that didn't answer the antitrust law question. )
<< <i>I believe it's called "grasping at straws". >>
The funny thing is that he's hoping someone else will do the research and make the anti-trust case for him. (Here's the DOJ website. Go nuts.... please!) He's either clueless or he believes that bluster will make up for not having a case. Given the craven NNC grading described here, I believe it's the latter.
Another logical stretch of his is that the policy implies that collectors are "commiting fraud" by buying his stuff. Boy, that should rally his customers round him! Right?