Wire Transfer Question/Who is liable if:

mrearlygold

Most people have agreed there's no problem giving our bank information to receive wire transfers. Once someone has that information, wouldn't it be pretty easy for them to send "e-checks" using our bank info????

ebaytrader

Yep.

Mercury10c

Don't ever give out your bank account information to anyone for any reason! They can do 'e-checks' and even print paper checks if
they want.

mrearlygold

So much for everyone stating that bank wires are completely safe eh?

What if you've given wire instructions to someone and they do this. Who is liable???

Broadstruck

I would assume the Account, Routing Number, and Swift Code provided by your Bank is only for receiving transferred funds. As a safety precaution it would be good to set up a separate account just for Wire Transfers and move funds out as soon as they are cleared.
I would follow the X-files motto of "trust no one" and would only keep the minimum amount in the secondary account required by the bank... be it $100, $1000, etc.

fc

you may want to change banks that offer you modern security.

for example, a bank will not authorize or allow a transfer
unless you have a certain level of security.

some thing you know. a password.
some thing you have. all your bank info.
some thing you are. rsa securID, biometric device (finger print), signature, etc..

once all 3 of these things are authenticated, only then will the
bank do its magic.

often the rsa securID is the real stopper.

i hope this helps in a small way to know what to ask a bank for
to get a higher level of security. many banks have started using
this since 2000.

mrearlygold

<< <i>I would assume the Account, Routing Number, and Swift Code provided by your Bank is only for receiving transferred funds. As a safety precaution it would be good to set up a separate account just for Wire Transfers and move funds out as soon as they are cleared.
I would follow the X-files motto of "trust no one" and would only keep the minimum amount in the secondary account required by the bank... be it $100, $1000, etc. >>



Nope, just looked and it's all the same as what's on the checks.

Who is liable is now my main question

notwilight

Who is liable is an academic question since you won't be able to find the perp. If you're talking about the bank being liable then .

I have a seperate checking account i use for wire transfers. I'll be glad to post the info for that account so that you can all transfer money in. Soon as it gets there I take it out.

--jerry

mrearlygold

Who is liable and, let's say for the sake of argument that I've been scammed. My account info is in the hands of someone who intends to rip us off and they start a calvalcade of echecks and whatever else these thieves come up with as a way to rip people off. The banks closed over the weekend, yes?

Does that give us time to stop the withdrawl of money from our accounts??

And if not, then who is liable? If someone steals checks, the bank is liable? In this case, who?

Broadstruck

I'm really sorry to hear your account has been compromised, however weekend or not E checks normally take 3-5 days to clears... so you should be able to stop the crook in his tracks if you act fast.

As to who's liable get ready for everyone at your bank to pass the buck and jump through hoops to avoid giving you an actual answer. It's a mighty scary situation to be in and I wish you a lot of luck towards a safe outcome. But be forwarded I think your in for a major horse and pony show, and some aspirin may be in order!

mrearlygold

So there's no protection?

3-5 business days to process?

ziggy29

<< <i>Who is liable and, let's say for the sake of argument that I've been scammed. My account info is in the hands of someone who intends to rip us off and they start a calvalcade of echecks and whatever else these thieves come up with as a way to rip people off. The banks closed over the weekend, yes? >>

Wire transfers might be a problem. I think e-checks could be, too, if you weren't aware your account was compromised. They take a few days to clear, so you could probably get them stopped before they cleared.

Broadstruck

The E checks can take even longer if there a holiday involved up to 8 days... yet that's not the case right now.

Best to get off the keyboard asap and run... not walk to your bank.

Mercury10c

FC, you are missing the point. If you give me your bank account number and routing number, I do not need to do a wire transfer which will require
passing various levels of security. All I need to do is fire up Quicken and start printing checks. By the time you figure out that the checks were forged,
your money is mine.

As far as liability, banks have insurance for this type of thing, and usually the customers are reimbursed for fraudulent transactions.
Sometimes a late return can be done if fraudulent checks are caught right away.
If the item comes through as an ACH, the bank can return it within 60 days.
And if anyone wants to question me about the safety of giving out account information, I work in a bank and I see fraud every day
of the week. 9 times out of 10, it is because a moronic customer gave their account information out to someone they don't know,
or even worse, to someone who said that they were going to wire them a sum of money. The only solution, once you have been
scammed, is to close the account, and open a new one with a different number. This can be a pain in the ass if you have lots of electronic
transaction, paypal, direct deposit, etc. Having a separate account at the bank will not work too well either. If that account goes negative, the bank
has the right of offset, and they will just transfer the money from your other account to cover the negative balance.

Broadstruck

Y'all know this post will float on the web forever... maybe we should be PM'g??? As Sorry for being so blunt but... this is scary enough to make my spincter tighten, as it just got so much easier to get shafted without getting kissed first!

mrearlygold

<< <i>The E checks can take even longer if there a holiday involved up to 8 days... yet that's not the case right now.

Best to get off the keyboard asap and run... not walk to your bank. >>



Banks closed today. I sent faxes.

Broadstruck

Sorry I'm not Columbian so I forgot today was a bank holiday.

I actually feel this gives you a one day grace period as nothing is processing today.

mackdriver

I had some one buy a $1,500.00 coin from me and wanted to do the wire transfer thing.I gave them my bank info to start the process,next thing i know,my bank account was wiped out.They printed phoney checks using my bank info.They also hit a very well known dealer,but that was thier mistake,the dealers bank questioned the transaction and the thieves where caught.I got all my money back,but it was a real hassle to get it all straigtened out.Never again will i do wire transfers.

mrearlygold

Mercury10c, I'm the moron in this case. Thank you for your input thus far. This would be a major hassle but the thought of getting that account wiped out blows my mind. You say that banks will reimburse? Are they obligated to do so?

mrearlygold

mackdriver, how long did it take for you to be reimbursed?

mackdriver

Mrearlygold,Only took about 2 weeks to get it all straightened out with getting my money back and had to open a new account.

ModernCrapNut

If someone in another country wants to wire money, let them use western union. I will cost them a nice fee, but your account info will be secure.

mrearlygold

<< <i>If someone in another country wants to wire money, let them use western union. I will cost them a nice fee, but your account info will be secure. >>



That will be my rule from now on. I only hope that IF we are scammed then the bank is obligated to cover it.

fc

FC, you are missing the point. If you give me your bank account number and routing number, I do not need to do a wire transfer which will require
passing various levels of security. All I need to do is fire up Quicken and start printing checks. By the time you figure out that the checks were forged,
your money is mine.
-----------

i did not think of it that way. it seems a person does not need
any info then. just print some phony crap on a check and goto
town?? if the seller does not ask for ID you are all set? yikes.

even if asked for ID, get a fake license and just reprint the check
to show a name that matches up to the ID?

mrearlygold

mackdriver, how long did it take them to wipe your account out? I guess where I'm going with this question is, if I gave the account info yesterday ( sunday ), would they even have a chance to do the same? Banks closed on sunday and today? Do I have time to freeze it and prevent anything from happening?

Broadstruck

I really think your safe if all this went down yeasterday... but can you look at your account online to see if anything weird is pending?

mrearlygold

<< <i>I really think your safe if all this went down yeasterday... but can you look at your account online to see if anything weird is pending? >>



No, I'm paranoid about accessing online

Broadstruck

No, I'm paranoid about accessing online

Just think of this as a hiccup not a set back, as if you now become overly paranoid the other fellow won.

PM me all you account info and your password and I'll check it for you.

mrearlygold

I'll laugh tomorrow if I find out we're OK.

tmot99

Did this actually happen or are is this just hypothetical?

notwilight

<< <i>

<< <i>I really think your safe if all this went down yeasterday... but can you look at your account online to see if anything weird is pending? >>

No, I'm paranoid about accessing online >>



If I were you and was worried, which you are, then I would get over my online paranoia and log in and move everything to savings. Leave $50 to keep the account open and pay the wire transfer fees assuming the most likely outcome that the buyer is honest and money will be coming in rather than going out.

Also, if you bank at a large bank sattelite branches may be open today. My Wells Fargo branch in the grocery store is open Saturday, sunday, evenings, and I believe today. --Jerry

Broadstruck

If you log on today to your account online, and also have a personal account with the same bank (?) you could transfer all your business funds out of the account in question. As if there's no funds present... there's nothing to take. Just another thought...

Broadstruck

notwilight... now that's scary that at 4:44pm we shared the same thought!

fishcooker

As noted by someone earlier, an account can have a negative balance, with YOU still being liable to repay it.

Broadstruck

As noted by someone earlier, an account can have a negative balance, with YOU still being liable to repay it.

Sure but if a scam was about to unfold, I'd rather rip out every last red cent of my funds and let the overdraft protection cover any transfer fees. As it's tough to run a business if your funds are gone, and you have to wait 60 days to recoupe the loss.

mrearlygold

Would it even be possible to do since yesterday?

coynclecter

When you open an account you enter an agreement with the bank that it will hold your money until you authorize it's release. This is why you sign a check. When you authorize the bank to wire money out they usually require a signed authorization. Now the bank is supposed to verify your signature on every check before they release the funds but this is costly for them so they usually pay the check and then do something about it if someone complains.

Simply put, if you do not sign to authorize a payment from your account then the bank is 100% liable, period, end of story. They gave your money away without your authorization. Even if the check is forged. An E-check leaves a trail and they will be able to follow it.

Banks are liable to protect your money. If anyone could remove money from my account without my authorization I might as well put in a jar on my front lawn.

mrearlygold

coynclecter, hopefully that type of rationality will prevail in the event there's a problem.

Mind boggling to have to even worry about these kinds of things. It would appear that anyone in the world can buy information about anyone in the USA, online, and use that information against us. Do they call that the "freedom of information act"?

Freedom. Yeah.

droopyd

Well then, I guess direct depost of payroll checks and government checks is a no-no, then?

IrishMike

<< <i>When you open an account you enter an agreement with the bank that it will hold your money until you authorize it's release. This is why you sign a check. When you authorize the bank to wire money out they usually require a signed authorization. Now the bank is supposed to verify your signature on every check before they release the funds but this is costly for them so they usually pay the check and then do something about it if someone complains.

Simply put, if you do not sign to authorize a payment from your account then the bank is 100% liable, period, end of story. They gave your money away without your authorization. Even if the check is forged. An E-check leaves a trail and they will be able to follow it.

Banks are liable to protect your money. If anyone could remove money from my account without my authorization I might as well put in a jar on my front lawn. >>



This is not entirely accurate. The bank may refuse to reimburse if the account holder didn't take reasonable measures to protect their own account. For example it you own a business and have a secretary or account type balancing your check register every month and they have access to your blank checks, regardless of whether they are an authorized signer on your account, if they forge your signature you are screwed blue and tatooed.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>Banks are liable to protect your money. If anyone could remove money from my account without my authorization I might as well put in a jar on my front lawn. >>



Apparently from instances reported here PayPal can take $$$ from your account. Is that still true?

UtahCoin

<< <i>Apparently from instances reported here PayPal can take $$$ from your account. Is that still true? >>



Yep, they did it to me. I sold a $1200 item and the buyer paid with PayPal. He was a verified PayPal member, sent to a confirmed address. Two weeks later I get an email from PayPal telling me not to ship the item and the funds were withdrawn from my account. It was a stolen account.

The good news was that after 2 months I was able to track down the perps mother and she made restitution.

tmot99

<< <i>

<< <i>Apparently from instances reported here PayPal can take $$$ from your account. Is that still true? >>



Yep, they did it to me. I sold a $1200 item and the buyer paid with PayPal. He was a verified PayPal member, sent to a confirmed address. Two weeks later I get an email from PayPal telling me not to ship the item and the funds were withdrawn from my account. It was a stolen account.

The good news was that after 2 months I was able to track down the perps mother and she made restitution. >>



And I'm sure the fine print with PayPal authorizes them to remove money from an account in situations like this. They can't just remove it whenever they feel like, for example, to pay the electric bill.

ebaytrader

<< <i>

<< <i>Apparently from instances reported here PayPal can take $$$ from your account. Is that still true? >>



Yep, they did it to me. I sold a $1200 item and the buyer paid with PayPal. He was a verified PayPal member, sent to a confirmed address. Two weeks later I get an email from PayPal telling me not to ship the item and the funds were withdrawn from my account. It was a stolen account.

The good news was that after 2 months I was able to track down the perps mother and she made restitution. >>




You mean that paypal didn't protect you with their 'seller protection' policy?


I'm shocked!

mrearlygold

I have spoken to my branch manager, the banks operations manager and NOBODY knows who is liable. I've been on the phone since 7:55 and have gotten nowhere.

Simple question. IF someone uses the bank routing and account information on my check or from wire instructions, to send echecks, or for any other fraudulent action, who is liable?

Nobody could ( or would ) answer the question. No idea.

IrishMike

Your bank is liable. That is why they are required to have E & O insurance.

IrishMike

Tom last year a local bank wired out funds without the customers signed authorization. The client was made whole and the bank had to collect on its insurance policy. Funds had been wired to Italy.

mrearlygold

I just received a call from the bank manager. The question wasn't what happens with a bank wire. When we give wire instructions, we give a routing number and our account number. The question now is what happens if the person we gave that information uses that information for fraudulent purposes.

The answer ( drumroll please)


WE are liable. That's right from the horses head. They will "help us fill out papers to dispute it" but the bottom line is we , the customer are liable.

That's the position from Peninsula Bank Florida.

notwilight

<< <i>I have spoken to my branch manager, the banks operations manager and NOBODY knows who is liable. I've been on the phone since 7:55 and have gotten nowhere. Simple question. IF someone uses the bank routing and account information on my check or from wire instructions, to send echecks, or for any other fraudulent action, who is liable? Nobody could ( or would ) answer the question. No idea. >>



I got similar unclear answers. The only thing they were clear on was that it was a good idea to open up a seperate account for wire transfers. Why don't you just open a new account this morning and move all the money to it leaving the old account for the wire transfer account?

IrishMike

And if you call your attorney he will tell you your bank is full of caca.

jpkinla

Tom,

The rules that cover EFT's allow for up to a 6 month period for the maker to REVERSE such payment. The payment is essentially a conditional payment so NEVER sell a coin with an EFT to someone you DO NOT KNOW! We accept EFT's as payment from our debtors on their collection accounts (my business) but understand that they can reverse their payment for up to 6 months. Be careful as EFT is NOT THE SAME as a check and the rules are different!