Will the Barber quarter keys change from being the "Big 3" to the "Big 4"

Barberman55

With the current popularity of the 1909-O Barber quarter, and the subsequent price increases for this date, will this date eventually be included within the same class as the 1896-S, 1901-S, and 1913-S key date Barbers? When I look at the recent prices that the 09-O is commanding in the circulated grades, I have to wonder. A current listing on Ebay has the "Buy it Now", for a PCGS graded F-15, 1909-O Barber quarter, as $825.00.

Ebay link to 09-O

As Mike has already brought to our attention.....a PCGS graded AU-50, 1909-O Barber quarter, is also currently listed on Ebay, with the price already up to $1,125.00.....WITH 6 DAYS STILL LEFT ON THE AUCTION!

SeatedLibertyKeys

I say not a chance.

If these prices hold, I imagine many 09-O's will hit the market. There are probably many raw F-XF coins that were never worth getting slabbed.

In other words, the 09-O population will increase at a higher rate than the big 3. Anyone wanting one of the big 3 certified, probably has done so by now. Where as the 09-O may be a different story.

The asking prices are very high for the 09-O right now, but has anyone tracked their sales?

TomB

It's funny, I expected by your title that the addition of a fourth member would be the 1909-O. However, while the coin is a true bear to find in mid-grades and higher, it is also certainly out there in large quantities in G4 or thereabouts. Personally, I have found the 1897-S to be a far tougher issue to find in any grade than the 1909-O, but one must realize that I am not looking for coins above EF so their relative availability above that level might be different than below that level.

RichieURich

I hope so. I have 14 on my website!

MFH

Dan,

In reference to the PCGS AU 50 example - I only notified yourself and one other collector - I knew both of you would be interested in it - and if I had made a general statement on any forum, there would have been quite a few collectors throwing "their hat into the ring".

I was somewhat taken back by the amount the coin was bid to with six days left on the Ebay auction; however, the auction was pulled. My only guess for the retraction of that auction was that the auction title mentioned a PCGS AU 53 - yet, when you scrolled down to view the coin, it was in actuality an AU 50. I'm sure the seller will relist it under its correct grade.

The 1909-O is a condition rarity at the moment; once higher prices start coming for choicer AU55-58's [ the last time I checked, there was only one AU 58 is currently on the PCGS Registry ] you will see more submissions. Money will drive them out into the open, I know it.

Case in point: Peter Shireman was kind enough to sell me his better duplicate 1904-S half a few years ago in a PCGS AU 55 holder. At the time it was a POP = One coin, none finer in AU condition.

We all know what happened to the POP Report on this coin once the price escalated. I think the same thing will happen to the 09-O quarter once higher prices are established in choicer circulated grades...ie: AU 50-53-55-58.

Recently a 1909-O quarter was sold at a Heritage auction in a PCGS MS 64 holder. It generated almost $4900 with buyers fees. Last year, I purchased another MS 64 from John Marberger for $3500; I would have loved to have compared these two examples side by side.

I seriously doubt that the 09-O will ever be considered within the Top Three - or Top Four as Tom mentioned the 1897-S is truly a scarce coin as well; Its a toss up in my mind which is truly scacer in choice AU...with the 09-O edging out the 97-S just a bit.

The 1909-O in PCGS F-15 currently at auction on Ebay for an opening bid of $825 will still be available after the closing date of the auction; its a pipe dream [ at this moment in time ] that it'll sell for $825. I hope it does, I'd love to see the series take off.

Recent published Barber quarter price increases on the PCGS monthly journal still don't reflect the true color of the market in XF-AU as I know these stated prices are too conservative. [ Same thing for the Barber halves].

If the owner of the 1909-O quarter in PCGS AU 58 would be so kind as to add to this thread the image, it would be greatly appreciated. The image on the Registry is too small for any degree of study, otherwise, I would have borrowed the image myself and used it here as an attachment.

Here's my 09-O in MS 64...

Sunnywood

I think a quick look at the PCGS pops is enlightening for assessing relative rarity in the higher grades. Of course, in the lower to mid circulated grades, the three traditional keys have attracted many more submissions than any other dates. Therefore, the pops do not reflect true relative rarity for lower grades. However, in the higher grades, I think we can get a sense of relative rarity by looking at the PCGS pops:

The 1909-O has a total pop of 42 in mint state at PCGS. Let's compare this to the traditional three keys:

1901-S, the total MS pop at PCGS is 28. The 1896-S has a total of 29, and the 1913-S a total of 56. Evidently a larger number of 1913-S were saved in MS, even though the coin remains tough in circulated grades.

Other dates with low PCGS pops in MS are:

1896-O ... 34
1897-S ... 44
1898-O ... 39
1898-S ... 27 (my candidate for most under-appreciated date)
1901-O ... 40
1902-O ... 43
1911-D ... 43

It is difficult to say whether this correlates to rarity in all grades. Of course, in the more valuable dates, resubmissions also distort the pops. But I would not be surprised if the above short list of dates also turned out to be tough in all circulated grades.

Best,
Sunnywood

doh

The 1909-O has no chance to join the Big 3. Like others have said, many more will come out of the woodwork now that prices are increasing. In my opinion, to join the Big 3 a coin would have to be tough to find in low grades like the Big 3 are. I mean, sure, you can find the Big 3, but owning a 96-S even in Good is still a pretty big deal. Owning a 09-O in good is not a big deal, hence, not part of the Big 3.

Sunnywood

To those of you who are more familiar with the availability of uncertified lower grade circulated BQ's (let's say G thru VF, for example), what two or three dates do you think are the next toughest after the three keys?

And I'm curious, what about the '98-S? Is that readily available in circ grades?

Best,
Sunnywood

Barberman55

<< <i>To those of you who are more familiar with the availability of uncertified lower grade circulated BQ's (let's say G thru VF, for example), what two or three dates do you think are the next toughest after the three keys?

And I'm curious, what about the '98-S? Is that readily available in circ grades?

Best,
Sunnywood >>




From my experience:

1897-S
1898-S
1898-O
1901-O
1909-O

MFH

Well, the 1909-O that was listed on Ebay as an PCGS AU 53 - and removed due to the fact
that its an AU 50 - was relisted correctly and the auction is about to close in a couple of hours.

As of a few moments ago, the coin was at $1775. Two bidders are going at it "head to head".

Here's what they're fighting over:




The coin closed at $1775. I PM'd the winner our congratulations.
We'll see if the winner will attach some better images.

jdimmick

There are a few out there that are not known, becuase they are still raw or in other holders, A freind of mine has two more in AU. I already sold his PCGs Xf-45 last year.

No he is not selling! he hardly sells anything.

jim

veryfine

I do not think ANY additional dates will be classified as "keys."
There are, of course, some very difficult dates to acquire, depending on the condition.
Key dates in most of these older series were recognized long ago, and whether they deserve this status or not, are firmly planted in their respective positions. Perhaps a surprise hoard will change the current "big three" status, and a severe shortage and/or popularity explosion of another date could upset the hierarchy.
I doubt it!

roadrunner

Amazing an AU is fetching that much. Back in 1993 I remember a friend telling me he passed on a PCGS MS64 1909-0 25c at around $1300. It was basically selling for type coin money. While I would have bought it for that amount, there were very few buyers for anything at that time.

roadrunner

Barbercoin

Sorry RichO, but I'd very much like the 09-O "off the radar. That is.... unitl I buy one.

I also believe that some people are marketing certain semi-keys in hopes of fullfilling their "pipedreams". If they can find buyers, then good for them.

Great thread.

Mike, beautiful coin.


John

coinlieutenant

While I dont think that low grade 09-O's should join the big three, I dont rule out the possibility of it happening. If a major dealer or dealers started hyping the date and put on a promotion, interest would certainly grow...and therefore prices as well.

There are quite a few "keys" out there, that are overly priced and really not that rare at all. High relief saints, 09-S VDB's come to mind. Compared to the availability of an 09-S VDB in vg/fine, the 09-O quarter seems like a steal.

Think about other series (mostly seated) where stuff is truly rare in all grades, much less choice VF-low AU. There is so much out there that is still undervalued. Compare a 58-S quarter lets say in fine to a 09-O quarter in fine. The 58-S seems like a steal.

Edmund Dantes says in 'The Count of Monte Cristo'....."There is no happiness or unhappiness in this world, only a comparison of the two."

Insert rarity/commonness and you get a good numismatic saying.

Mike, I still love that 09-O...very nice coin...

John

veryfine

<< <i>
There are quite a few "keys" out there, that are overly priced and really not that rare at all. High relief saints, 09-S VDB's come to mind. Compared to the availability of an 09-S VDB in vg/fine, the 09-O quarter seems like a steal.
>>


I've heard this all before and commented on it, but it's worth addressing the issue again.
A High Relief Saint Gaudens $20 is an extremely desirable coin to own, as is the 1909-S VDB Lincoln. They are examples of superior artistry and workmanship. They also stand out as rarities and unusual types within these popular series.
Availability of a given issue is only part of the equation. There are countless rare or even unique collectibles out there that have very little value.

Mowgli

BCCS Barber Quarter Survey 2006 Results

For the sake of this survey, the following rarity ratings were used:
R1: Common date and grade, readily available
R2: Less common - Better date and grade
R3: Tough date – available, but may require some looking
R4: Scarce – may or may not find at larger shows/auctions
R5: Very scarce – only a few offered for sale each year
R6: Extremely scarce - almost never seen, only one or two may be offered for sale in a year’s time
R7: Rare – a single specimen might, on average, be offered for sale once every few years


Date AG G VG F VF XF AU MS

1896-S R3 R4 R4 R5 R5 R5 R5
1901-S R3 R4 R4 R5 R6 R6 R7 R6
1909-O R3 R3 R4 R4 R5 R6 R5
1913-S R4 R4 R5 R5 R7 R6 R4

You can look up any Barber quarter off the BCCS website to get its relative rarity based on the 2006 survey - which I am sure does not include all collectors or their coins.

My only comment is that there is no way I'm paying $1775 for a 1909-O AU 50 coin.

I spaced out the chart to make it easier to read but it didn't go that way. The 1901-S has one more rarity listing than the others; it is for the AG. The other three start with "G".

ARCO

Based on the population reports and collector experience, the 1909-O is a conditional scarcity. It is scarce in AU. Well, lots of Barbers are scarce in AU based on the population reports. The 1909-O is probably the scarcest of the non-keys of all three Barber series, and it is scarce in VF and XF...but then again, so are lots of other dates. The 1898-S is more underrated than the 1909-O IMHO. It is probably as scarce in AU58 and even scarcer in MS...much more so. For the Barber quarters, the 1898-S in MS. is the scarcest coin for the money in that series.

I sure would like to get me a nice AU 1909-O however.

rec78

Good thread. Reminds me of the 1892-S Morgan dollar, which is a common coin in low grades and even up to AU . With more people trying to put together VF-XF sets of barber coins, the value coins(i.e. almost impossible to find problem free) ,such as the 1909-O barber quarter, IMO, will continue to be strong.

coinkat

Not likely, however, I do see a second tier group of keys for this series and many are already referenced in the thread, that seem under appreciated except by those who understand the series.

Dave99B

Interesting thread. My guess is 'no'.

Speaking only of circulated original examples in the VF-XF range, I don’t think the 1909-O is quite in the same class as the ‘big three’. In my opinion the availability gap between the 1896-S and the 1909-O is fairly wide. By the way, I’ve been collecting Barber quarters for 20 years so I’m not ‘shooting from the hip’ on this.

But given this, I do think the 1909-O is the toughest non-key date, following closely behind by the 1897-S (again, in VF/XF). Both of those buggers are mothers to locate in ORIGINAL VF. Trust me on this!

Dave

Sunnywood

I just have to post this coin again ... it's so cool !!!

tightbudget

I don't see why it would...

dogwood

I think Richie above has the answer to your question. It reminds me that Brian Greer told me he brought a swarm of VF 09-o's to the Central States (?) show in 2005 and sold most of them for 400 each when they still booked for 150. At least that's what he said in a phone conversation while I placed an order for something else. So it could be a tad overrated for the $ that are unfolding, although I think this series is on a different demand scale, and there is enough to go around. That would change if more folks caught the bug. On the street, I think the 05-o and 96-o are every bit as tough as the 09-o. Find me a nice 08-s in XF45. I just keep coming back to BQ's and the Halves as the place to park my collecting time and money because we count pops in the singles and tens, rather than the hundreds and thousands. It may never pan out at retirement but for today, if you know, you know.

seateddime

I like of like the 1914 S , I have about 30 of them