My first Double Die.

NewMackMatist

I finally found my first Double Die!! Woo Hoo!! After going through at least a 1000 Lincoln Memmorials with another 3000 +/- to go...

Not that it really matters what it would grade since it's my first DDO/R and I don't care, but what do you all think it would go?? How badly do the dark spots effect the grade??

It's got doubling on the Date, Mint Mark, and Liberty on the obverse:


And doubling on United on the reverse:


Anyhow, thanks for looking.

-Mack

commoncents05

I would call that strike doubling, and not a technical doubled die. Hopefully others will have better news.

-Paul

TomB

It looks like machine doubling to me, which is not a doubled die, but this is not my strong point.

Rampage

It looks more like die errosion/deteriated die to me.

NewMackMatist

Ok, so I can learn, what's the difference between a 'Doubled Die' and 'Strike Doubling'?? I thought they were the same?? What distinguishes one from the other??

Thanks!
-Mack

JRocco

It is just abrasion/deterioration as said.
Sorry, but not a doubled die.

JRocco

<< <i>Ok, so I can learn, what's the difference between a 'Doubled Die' and 'Strike Doubling'?? I thought they were the same?? What distinguishes one from the other??

Thanks!
-Mack >>



Sometimes best understood when seen. The first is an extreme example of a true doubled die. The design was doubled on the die that produced the coins and each coin made from these dies produced the exact same doubling.
The second is an extreme example of machine/strike doubling. Here the die produced a normal coin but then bounced/chattered on the normal coin and the normal die hit it a second time smearing or pushing some metal around on the normal coin.

pharmer

On a true doubled die, that is the working die that slams into the blank creating the coin, there are multiple impressions of the design, due to the working die being impressed more than once by the master hub die, and the pressings were not in exactly the same place, to a greater (1955 doubled die ddo-1) or lesser degree. The variations in the impressions are caused by different factors of rotation or pivoting between the master and working dies, which results in about 8 different classes or types of doubled dies. Please see the chapter on this in any volume of Cherrypickers' Guide to Die Varieties.

Mechanical, or strike doubling, happens at the moment of striking by a normal working die, with no doubling present on it, and is a result of movement of the planchet/die as it goes through the press. Sometimes called ejection doubling as well, it boils down to movement/vibration and shows up as shelf-like doubling image, as your coin demonstrates.

True doubled dies become easier to spot with continued practice. You are on the right track, keep up the good work. And do read the chapter on this in CPG, you will never mistake a strike doubled coin for the real thing again. It will save you countless hours of fruitless cloase examination of non-doubled dies as well.

NewMackMatist

Thanks everybody!!

-Mack

loro1rojo

You said you look through over 1000 coins. I recommend that you learn a bit more about doubled dies and varieties before looking through the rest of the cents. I find it hard to belief that after 1,000 cents, you have found nothing.

NewMackMatist

From what I understand, these varieties are rare. A thousand coins out of billions is not a large piece of the pie. I haven't exactly found nothing...just a lot of repunched mint marks. This was the first doubled that I could see with the naked eye and didn't need magnafication. I've seen a variety of suspious coins and I've put them aside in one pile to go through again as I gain experience. I'm a small time collector and my ultimate goal is to have fun. For me, searching the 1000's of pennies I have is a great way to see my collection and replace the coins in my albums with better coins as I find them. Once I'm done, I'll probably start over and do it again. So I really haven't lost anything by the search I've already done. And by posting what I though was a DDO, I've learned the difference by everyone helpfully pointing that out to me and also gaind some new reading material, The Cherry Pickers Guide.

-Mack

ironhorse19

This thread brings back memories! This first time I sent some Jeffersons to James Wiles for attribution, I had some doubts...surely they couldn't be that easy to find. Sure enough, nothing came back as true doubling. James took the time to explain some key differences. Coneca has a really helpful site on doubling and rpms. See it here: Coneca

This took place about two years ago. While I'm still in the learning mode and will forever be, I'm getting better and only because, like NewMackMatist, I put coins under the scope and study them one by one.

I recently sent in 35 wheaties for attribution/grading to ANACS. Of the 35, 19 were correctly identified. Of those 19, three were in the Top 100.

I looked at thousands. I takes time and dedication, but when NewMackMatist sends in his coins for attribution/grading and finds success, it makes looking at all those coins worthwhile.

Hang in there, NewMackMatist, you'll get it!

pharmer

NewMack, you can still buy uncirculated rolls of wheats, and with unc coins it's easier to spot varieties. If you are into Memorials, then unc rolls are even less expensive. Try coins shops first, as it seems rolls on eBay, while numerous, are picked clean. There are probably exceptions, but the few I bought on eBay to test the waters came up clean, and when you look through a few 1960d 1c unc rolls that are sold as "unsearched" and don't find a single rpm, that's a searched roll. If you find a shop that carries rolls, buy a couple to start and search them. If they are nice, and full of stuff, go back and buy the inventory before someone else does, and before the owner raises the price or starts searching them himself.

Since ironhorse has brought up Dr Wiles, and you are finding rpm's, you also need his Lincoln Cent rpm book second edition with supplement.

NewMackMatist

Thanks IronHorse19 & Pharmer, I've booked marked that site and will be checking it out as well as Dr Wiles RPM book.

-Mack

millennium

Bad news....But keep up the looking....here is a site that you may well be interested in:

Copper Coins Web Site

Chris has a great site for this type of stuff......


S

fc

excellent post. this really cleared up the concept for me.

Coinsponge

A machine double is still an error and still a find is it not? Otherwise how could a smooth edge dollar be anything special. I myself question if you can really tell if it is a strike error or a die error by looking a one coin. Seems to me that if you fine 100 coins with the same exact doubling then it has to be a die error. I really doubt a maching would malfunction in the striking process hundreds of times in the same exact way although it is possible I suppose.

Coinsponge

<< <i>

<< <i>Ok, so I can learn, what's the difference between a 'Doubled Die' and 'Strike Doubling'?? I thought they were the same?? What distinguishes one from the other??

Thanks!
-Mack >>



Sometimes best understood when seen. The first is an extreme example of a true doubled die. The design was doubled on the die that produced the coins and each coin made from these dies produced the exact same doubling.
The second is an extreme example of machine/strike doubling. Here the die produced a normal coin but then bounced/chattered on the normal coin and the normal die hit it a second time smearing or pushing some metal around on the normal coin.

>>



Let me play "devils advocate" just a bit. It seems that you are assuming that the difference between a strike error and a die error is the severity of the shifting. What if a die were produced where there was a slight shifting like your second example. How would you tell then?

pharmer

Nothing wrong with collecting machine doubling. Some people do just that. But just know the difference in the types of doubling: doubled dies are just that, the working dies themselves have doubled/tripled/quadrupled images impressed into them from multiple hubbings that were not in exactly the same place; while machine doubling results from a normal working die that does not having doubling on it.

19Lyds

<< <i>Let me play "devils advocate" just a bit. It seems that you are assuming that the difference between a strike error and a die error is the severity of the shifting. What if a die were produced where there was a slight shifting like your second example. How would you tell then? >>



Its not a question of the severity of the shifting. Its a question of a true doubled die vs a mechanical situation that occurs on the presses. Remember, these machines are stamping out hundreds of a coins a minute with a lot of force. Because of the tremendous pressure involved, things get loosened up ever so slightly. But not so slightly that it doesn't affect the end product. Typically, the actual die will get loosened up in the component that is holding it in place. A slight loosening can greatly affect the coin that comes out.

Basically the difference between a true doubled die and a mechanical doubling is that the true doubled die will have clear separation between the letters or devices whereas a mechanical doubling will not have any separation. The same as if you were to use a rubber stamp and stamp a piece of paper twice or hold the stamp on the paper and shift it creating a double stamping.



Machine Doubling and quite dramatic! This one had me convinced I'd found a doubled die IKE! All the experts said "NOT".



A true doubled die. Not a whole lot of shift but look closely at the lower left portion of the D on GOD. Now look at the lower right of the I and the lower left leg of the N in IN. You see a separating line between one impression of the die being created and the second impression.

The basic difference is that mechanical doubling, even though it is very dramatic, is characterized by a flat "shelf-like" appearance whuile true doubling is not.

NewMackMatist

One more doubling question...can anyone explain why the machine doubling in my coin only has the Date, Mint Mark, and 'Libe' on the obverse and the 'Unite' on the reverse doubled and not the whole image?? I would think that if the planchet or die slipped/rotated/moved/etc. while being stamped, the whole image should be effected.

And thanks to everybody for all the great info and links!!

-Mack

Coinsponge

<< <i>One more doubling question...can anyone explain why the machine doubling in my coin only has the Date, Mint Mark, and 'Libe' on the obverse and the 'Unite' on the reverse doubled and not the whole image?? I would think that if the planchet or die slipped/rotated/moved/etc. while being stamped, the whole image should be effected.

And thanks to everybody for all the great info and links!!

-Mack[/

That's the only question remaining for me. I know you have a lot of pressure there and wierd things can happen I suppose but the mechanics of that escape me. On some of the doubles that look like the shelf doubling as described it only occurs on the date. Since the date is not pressed seperately then how does the rest of the design stay intact when a die moves?

19Lyds

The planchet can actually vibrate as it is hit with such force. Perhaps a harmonic vibration of some type as I do not know for sure. I do know that the dies have a slight conical shape to them which enables better metal flow. Perhaps this irregular shape could be what contributes to the machine doubling.

NewMackMatist

The conical shape makes sense to me. That would explain why the doubling is on the outer edge of the coin and the bust portion is not effected.

Thanks!!
-Mack

JRocco

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Ok, so I can learn, what's the difference between a 'Doubled Die' and 'Strike Doubling'?? I thought they were the same?? What distinguishes one from the other??

Thanks!
-Mack >>



Sometimes best understood when seen. The first is an extreme example of a true doubled die. The design was doubled on the die that produced the coins and each coin made from these dies produced the exact same doubling.
The second is an extreme example of machine/strike doubling. Here the die produced a normal coin but then bounced/chattered on the normal coin and the normal die hit it a second time smearing or pushing some metal around on the normal coin.

>>



Let me play "devils advocate" just a bit. It seems that you are assuming that the difference between a strike error and a die error is the severity of the shifting. What if a die were produced where there was a slight shifting like your second example. How would you tell then? >>



It is not so much the degree or severity of shifting at all. A doubled die coin is a coin produced or punched from doubled dies. The dies themselves are doubled, hence the name.
A machine doubled coin is a coin punched from NORMAL dies that somehow bounced or hit the normal coin caused post strike damage.
Here are some less dramatic true doubled die coins as an example. These were punched from true hub doubled dies.
Hope this helps.
1936 DDO

1955 DDO, die 2

1941 DDO

RBinTex

Still cool.

19Lyds

I just read in the Latest Coin World where some fella found a 1982 DDR that has significant doubling! This is the first of its kind and I am sure will affect the prices of the 1982 UNCIRC rolls.

The funny thing of it is, is that its been 25 years since these were produced and this major find is just now surfacing. As a circulated coin no less!

Collecting moderns can be such fun!!!!!!!!!

coppercoins

coinsponge - For you...



<< <i>A machine double is still an error and still a find is it not? >>



No, it's not. Machine doubling is extremely common on many different issues and many different denominations. It's not worth anything.



<< <i>Otherwise how could a smooth edge dollar be anything special. >>



Has absolutely nothing to do with machine doubling or doubled dies.



<< <i>I myself question if you can really tell if it is a strike error or a die error by looking a one coin. >>



Many people here have been through thousands and thousands of coins - myself hundres of thousands. Yes, it's easy to tell the difference with one coin.



<< <i>Seems to me that if you fine 100 coins with the same exact doubling then it has to be a die error. >>



Not necessarily. A loose die can strike coins for hours before being tightened - that translates to tens of thousands of coins.



<< <i>I really doubt a maching would malfunction in the striking process hundreds of times in the same exact way although it is possible I suppose. >>



Yup...not only possible, but common.

coppercoins

newmackmatist - for you...

The 'doubling' on the obverse of your coin is a ghost-image type doubling created by die wear. As the die wears out, molecules of steel tend to pancake outward leaving hills and valleys that make patterns. Often the shape of the surface of the die - the recesses for the design - play a big role in what areas flake out first and how far they flow. This is why the die wear takes on the same basic shape as the design, thus appears to be doubling.

I can let you know that you've hit it right in the middle of its prime. This sort of shadow doubling only happens on zinc cents, and is far more common from 1988-1993 than any other era.

The reverse of your coin has something different. I am assuming you are looking at the tops of the letters in UNITED for the doubling you see, and this is a different form of oddity that also only happens on zinc cents, but is still very common. Zinc cents (1982 to date) are a mixture of pure zinc with a tiny additive of copper (additive after 1983) rolled into sheets (silver colored metal at this point), cut into blanks, rolled into planchets, then bathed in pure copper to turn them coppery colored. The final composition of the coin is 97.5% zinc and 2.5% copper...but the copper is just a plating on the outside of the coin.

Now...when the coins are struck, sometimes the copper plating splits open either during the down-swing of the strike, or as the die is lifting from the finished coin. This leaves a hole in the copper plating and because the holes line up with the outside edges of letters, it looks a little like doubling.

If what you are seeing is something different on the reverse, I don't see it...but it's probably a combination of the two effects I have already mentioned. Unfortunately your coin is not a doubled die, is not a mentionable error, and is not worth a premium value.

ironhorse19

<< <i>its been 25 years since these were produced and this major find is just now surfacing >>



This is exactly why I've never taken my 'sorted, nothing there' coins back to the bank!!!

Now, where the heck did I put that box of Lincoln 1980's??