1869/69 Indian I just got back from PCGS

doh

I bought this 69/69 in an NGC holder as an AU58 about 2 years ago. I sent it to PCGS (knowing it wouldn't come back a 58) and it came back a 53. I'm happy with it. A PCGS 53 is worth plenty more than an NGC 58. Poor NGC....

I know the pics aren't the best...it looks MUCH nicer in hand

My Crossover history:

2 ANACS coins: both crossed
4 NGC coins: one crossed, two crossed lower, and one didn't cross. (the two that crossed lower and the DNC were all Indian Cents...hmmm)

STONE

Very nice coin. I think a 53 is the best the coin could get since I'm not seeing much luster and a fair amount of wear on the hair.

STONE

Anyone else with opinions on this coin?

coinman420

i like it.

Topdollarpaid

maybe if you clean it they will grade it 58

Just a thought

NumisOxide

Nice RPD. I like it as an AU-53.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>Nice RPD. I like it as an AU-53. >>

RBinTex

"A PCGS 53 is worth plenty more than an NGC 58."

I strenuously disagree for this particular coin in these grades.

If you were talking about 64-65RD's I would COMPLETELY agree with you.

ElmerFusterpuck

I agree with RBinTX's disagreement. The coin did look like an overgraded 58. A properly graded 53 (or 58) should be the same value in any holder. But such is not true in this weird world...

EagleEye

AU should have some of the original surface (luster in some areas). If it is missing much of the detail, like in the diamonds it should only get AU-50 or 53. a true AU-58 should look like this:



AU-58 is Choice AU, meaning it should be exceptional - good strike some luster.

Sadly many of the AU-58's graded by NGC and PCGS don't make it. I saw a 1877 AU-53 here at the show that was only a true VF-30.

Unknown

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doh

Thank you all for your opinions on my coin. I think it's a beautiful 53 (certainly not a 58). The pics aren't great, the coin in hand looks MUCH nicer and has some luster - very good eye appeal. As far as PCGS vs. NGC I will always choose PCGS first. I submitted two NGC AU58 IHCs and one came back a 53 and the other a 55. Put simply, NGC overgrades many coins. IN MY EXPERIENCE it's close to half the coins in NGC holders I've seen are overgraded. Go head and yell at me, that's just my experience. I'm sure many people out there love NGC and that's fine. But every time I sell a coin or see them sold on eBay or elsewhere, PCGS coins sell for 10-20% more than NGC coins. Personally, I'd much rather have my two IHCs as a 53 and 55 in PCGS holders than as 58s in NGC holders, but again that's just me.

Cheers, B

STONE

B,
I totally agree with that assessment about NGC; I'm a big PCGS fan myself.

mike92694

<< <i>Thank you all for your opinions on my coin. I think it's a beautiful 53 (certainly not a 58). The pics aren't great, the coin in hand looks MUCH nicer and has some luster - very good eye appeal. As far as PCGS vs. NGC I will always choose PCGS first. I submitted two NGC AU58 IHCs and one came back a 53 and the other a 55. Put simply, NGC overgrades many coins. IN MY EXPERIENCE it's close to half the coins in NGC holders I've seen are overgraded. Go head and yell at me, that's just my experience. I'm sure many people out there love NGC and that's fine. But every time I sell a coin or see them sold on eBay or elsewhere, PCGS coins sell for 10-20% more than NGC coins. Personally, I'd much rather have my two IHCs as a 53 and 55 in PCGS holders than as 58s in NGC holders, but again that's just me.

Cheers, B >>



I will start yelling at you.

I disagree with your opinion regarding NGC. I don't believe they overgrade coins per se, but I believe that PCGS has a stricter interpretation of grading than does NGC.

Why would you prefer to have your IHCs in PCGS holders instead of NGC holders? After all, in many cases, if your "10-20%" estimate is reasonably correct, wouldn't it be more economically profitable to actually have the NGC coin at the higher grade? And if you follow the "Buy the coin, not the holder" theory, then it shouldn't really matter.

Which begs the question. Do you think you can get the same price if you should sell the PCGS 53 and 55 as you would the NGC 58s? Under which venues, eBay, selling to a random dealer, selling to an expert dealer (such as Rick Snow)? What if the grading spread was 64 vs. 65 or 63 vs. 65?

Don't get upset with me. I do the same thing too. On paper, I have thousands of dollars lost in NGC-->PCGS crossover downgrades.

EagleEye

It is also a factor of price too. An 1869/69 in an AU holder regardless of what it looks like is probably worth buying $600 (grey sheet bid). I am a buyer of an honest to goodness AU-50 at $700 or more, raw or not. You'd expect to pay $800-$900 for one from me, $1,200 for an AU-58, but you'd have to be first in line.

doh

I disagree with your opinion regarding NGC. I don't believe they overgrade coins per se, but I believe that PCGS has a stricter interpretation of grading than does NGC.

Wouldn't you rather have an undergraded coin than an overgraded coin? I know I would.


Which begs the question. Do you think you can get the same price if you should sell the PCGS 53 and 55 as you would the NGC 58s? Under which venues, eBay, selling to a random dealer, selling to an expert dealer

No, I don't think I could get the same price, I think I could get MORE for my PCGS coins. Wait, I don't think that at all. I KNOW IT.



Why would you prefer to have your IHCs in PCGS holders instead of NGC holders? After all, in many cases, if your "10-20%" estimate is reasonably correct, wouldn't it be more economically profitable to actually have the NGC coin at the higher grade? And if you follow the "Buy the coin, not the holder" theory, then it shouldn't really matter.

I always buy the coin, not the holder, but eventually the time will come to sell and I like to have my coins certified by a company that knows how to grade Indian Cents properly, which sure as heck is not NGC. And for that matter, PCGS is the most well respected in the business, they're coins will be worth more based purely on that. So, no it's not at all economically profitable to have my coins in NGC holders.

mike92694

<< <i>

Why would you prefer to have your IHCs in PCGS holders instead of NGC holders? After all, in many cases, if your "10-20%" estimate is reasonably correct, wouldn't it be more economically profitable to actually have the NGC coin at the higher grade? And if you follow the "Buy the coin, not the holder" theory, then it shouldn't really matter.

I always buy the coin, not the holder, but eventually the time will come to sell and I like to have my coins certified by a company that knows how to grade Indian Cents properly, which sure as heck is not NGC. And for that matter, PCGS is the most well respected in the business, they're coins will be worth more based purely on that. So, no it's not at all economically profitable to have my coins in NGC holders. >>



Based on your observations then, I will start asking Anaconda to offer me his NGC coins at a 20% discount.

mike92694

<< <i>

<< <i>

Why would you prefer to have your IHCs in PCGS holders instead of NGC holders? After all, in many cases, if your "10-20%" estimate is reasonably correct, wouldn't it be more economically profitable to actually have the NGC coin at the higher grade? And if you follow the "Buy the coin, not the holder" theory, then it shouldn't really matter.

I always buy the coin, not the holder, but eventually the time will come to sell and I like to have my coins certified by a company that knows how to grade Indian Cents properly, which sure as heck is not NGC. And for that matter, PCGS is the most well respected in the business, they're coins will be worth more based purely on that. So, no it's not at all economically profitable to have my coins in NGC holders. >>



Based on your observations then, I will start asking Anaconda to offer me his NGC coins at a 20% discount. >>



Heck, for that matter, I'll start asking for all to offer me their NGC coins at a 20% discount.

ernie11

I love your coin, but it brings back bad memories of when I was much younger and made a foolish mistake. Remember when these were called 1869/8 instead of over 9? I'd bought one from a dealer touted as an 1869/8, submitted it for authentication/grading and when it came back as an 1869/9, I thought I'd been misled by the dealer, so I took it back and he refunded my money. Stupid me!

elwood

I would grade it a EF-45.

I think that both services overgrade circulated Indians.

RBinTex

..."Stupid me!"



"...a true AU-58 should look like this:"

C'mon, Rick. If that were true (in PCGS's world) 95% of PCGS graded AU58 Indians would go poof.

The coin you displayed is about three standard deviations from mean (to the good) with respect to what is representative of PCGS AU58 Indians.

If "should" meant what PCGS' standard should be, I'll agree. If it meant that's what their standard currently IS, I'll not agree.

shorecoll

If by "eventually sell" you mean more than a year or two, you also don't really know what the price comparison between NGC and PCGS will be. IMHO.

EagleEye

C'mon, Rick. If that were true (in PCGS's world) 95% of PCGS graded AU58 Indians would go poof.

Yes that is true, but it still doesn't make them correctly graded. Perhaps I'm quoting "Fly-In" standards. But like I said earlier, price is a factor too. I can sometimes buy certified AU's that are really XF. Crack them out and sell them as XF's and still make a profit.