MS65 or MS66 or MS67

nationaltreasureshop

Ok experts...here is my question...

I recently made a submission to PCGS of modern quarters - the coins I sent in were very clean under 5x magnification....especially no major marks on George's face - they looked clear to me...clear strikes, good luster...I figured they were all MS66 minimum...

I got my grades back all MS65 (except for one MS67)

In looking at these and other submissions I've made - I'm confused. I've got some MS66s and MS67s with clear marks on important areas of the coin....then other coins with no major marks come back with a lesser grade.

The only difference I think maybe I see are very fine bag marks on the MS65s...for example - I'll get a MS67 with a mark on George's face, but the field surrounding George is very clean. An MS65 will have a clean George, maybe fine marks in the field. But I don't know if I'm just seeing things/grasping at straws here...

Anybody have any good advice for distinguishing an MS65 from a higher grade? What is the most important thing that makes a MS66 or MS67?

Thanks for any advice...

leothelyon

Here's an answer for you. Also it's not uncommon for a TGS to disagree with you. Collect what makes you happy. Don't get discourage because someone does not neccesarily agrees with you.

Should the number of qualities dictate the grade of a coin and it’s value and perhaps, it’s rarity? I believe it already occurs with every serious collector who wants that higher grade example in his collection. I’ve seen way to many coins in high grade holders that have only 1 or 2 qualities when they need to have at least 3 to warrant MS66 and MS67 grades. The main 3 qualities are the strike, grade/condition and the eye appeal. And the combination that makes up the eye appeal of a coin involves the luster, toning, if it has frosted or prooflike surfaces or fields. Another quality

Or

Every serious coin collector searches for coins that are fully struck, mark free and have exceptional overall eye appeal! There are 6 different qualities a coin can have. They include the strike, grade/condition, the luster and toning. Two additional qualities include an EDS strike and prooflike surfaces or fields! The overall eye appeal is based on the number of qualities a coin may possess, the more the better.

Q6 (Is the highest number of qualities a coin can have!)
EDS Strike 2 points (Includes Full Strike)
Grade/Condition
Prooflike surfaces or fields 2 points (Includes Luster)
Beautiful Toned

Q5
Must have an EDS strike or Prooflike surfaces or fields
Full Strike or Lustrous depending above!
Grade/Condition
Beautiful Toned

Q5
EDS Strike
Prooflike surfaces or fields

No qualities

Q1


Or

Grading coins can be as easy as 1-2-3 and hopefully 4 and 5.
Most collectable coins have one or two qualities about them that give them some marketablity. The tougher coins have 3 or 4 and in rare cases, they can have as many as 5 or 6 that make them really stand out above the rest. That is, if you want to look close enough to see the difference.
Most "Market Acceptable" coins have the most popular qualities; attractive toning and/or booming luster. If a coin is pretty enough with tons of luster or colorful toning, marks/nicks/distractions that would otherwise lower the grade, are forgiven and granted lofty grades. This could cause some problems for new collectors who haven't learned what to look for when they gloss over a coin they may end up buying.
The overall eye appeal is based on one or more of the following qualities; the quality of strike, the grade/condition, the quality of luster and the beauty of the toning. And in extremely rare cases, a coin may also have an EDS (early die state) strike or prooflike surfaces. Based on the number of qualities a coin may have we can determine it's grade or better yet, it's desirability!
It's very important to make note here that it takes a great deal of time and a large number of high quality coins to gain the experience and knowledge that is necessary to distinguish the differences in a coin's strike, luster and toning. I could post a thousand pictures to illustrate each quality but it's not the same as first hands-on experience when personally viewing a coin in hand. A camera can not replicate the exact luster of a high quality coin as seen in hand. The same is true for the toning. What a picture does show best is the strike and grade/condition.
For any coin to grade MSXX, it must have a number of qualities to make a grade. We have already seen coins with fewer than 3 qualities in MS66 and MS67 holders which is fine if that makes the collector happy. But a coin with 3 or 4 qualities will also grade MS66 and MS67 and this will make a collector just as happy if not more.

Is it fully struck? yes or no
Is it markfree? yes or no
Is the coin lustrous? yes or no
Does the coin have beautiful toning? yes or no
Does the coin have prooflike surfaces or fields? yes or no

As I have already mentioned, luster and toning are two other qualities a coin can have. The luster and toning are also factored into the overall eye appeal of a coin. But one quality can overpower another if you don't know what to look for. A coin can be lustrous with little toning or vice versus, too much toning with little luster. A another quality a coin may have are "prooflike" surfaces. A coin with 2 to 3 qualities, will have nice overall eye appeal especially when those qualities include luster and some toning. A Q3 quality coin may not have any toning or it may lack lustrous surfaces but if it has both then we would note that coin as a Q4 quality coin. Depending on what qualities a coin my possess, a Q3 quality coin may have more eye appeal than a Q4 quality coin especially if that Q3 quality coin possesses and EDS strike with prooflike fields but lacks lustrous surfaces or superb toning. A high quality coin must almost always have a full strike and virtually markfree focal areas.

This method of grading is used by anyone who collects and/or sells coins. But problems begin when a collector does not know how full a strike can get or what part of the coin design has the most trouble striking up. Same goes for luster or toning, only experience can play the deciding role in what qualifies as the most lustrous surfaces or beautiful toning and the blend of them. Having a understanding about nicks or marks on a coin, their locations, knowing where the focal areas are on a coin can all help derive to an accurate grade of a coin. Can we say that a Q4 quality coin should always grade or be equal to a MS67 certified coin? Can we always expect a certified MS67 coin to have 4 qualities? Expect the answer to those questions when you have viewed hundreds of certified coins! Remember what I said at the beginning of this page? Being able to note the qualities a coin will help determine it's point grade 1 through 5. A (+) is added when a coin has something extra but yet it doesn't have quite enough to count as a quality. A coin may have a full strike, lustrous surfaces and beautiful toning but if there is a noticable or distracting mark in one of it's focal areas, does this coin earn a Q3 or Q4? Perhaps a Q3+? The fact that a Q4 coin will not have this nick/mark in it's focal area will make it a better coin with more qualities over a coin that is flawed. Again, this grading method has a great deal to do with the experience that comes from seeing a large number of coins over an extended period of time. Time that may span a few months or for several years.
A coin with 3 qualities would be refered to as a Q3 coin. If it has a little something extra like some toning but the toning is not exceptional or semi prooflike surfaces but it's not fully prooflike or has a near EDS strike, then it could be noted as a Q3+ coin.

Here are the following combinations or single qualities a coin may possess.

A coin may have a full strike but lack the other 3 qualities. more later

There is no grid for this method of grading coins as it can easily be remembered. And again, what you decide to collect will have everything to do with the amount of knowledge you have gathered throughout your search for high quality coins. Same goes for Indian Head and Lincohn cents, Buffalo nickels, Mercury and Roosevelt dimes on so on. For any series that you collect, over much devoted time, you will need to learn the changing charactoristics of the qualities for each date and mint mark in a series. Personally, I could not tell you what to collect for many series other than Jefferson nickels. But if I were to begin a collection of another series, I would certainly learn about the strike charactoristics of the higher valued dates and go from there into the grade/conditions of the same. Most coins have luster and some color but to locate a fully struck coin has always been the greatest challenge to coin collecting.


I apologize for the long boring script but I've been working on it for my website.


Leo

TomB

Graders are human.

RedTiger

Leo posted the long version. The short version is start by looking at the entire coin. Luster and overall eye appeal gives a base grade, then subtract for marks. Do this without a loupe (unless your eye sight requires a loupe to see the coin). Some new collectors focus almost entirely on marks. Some focus almost entirely on luster and eye appeal. Both are factors.

/edit to add: you mentioned "good luster." Maybe you need to look at a lot more coins and train your eye to see what the graders are seeing. If using a loupe, marks tend to be easy to count. Luster seems to be your stumbling block, though, without seeing the actual coins in question, I may be wrong.