Guess the grade... Proof Liberty (borrowed pics from ModernCoinMart.com)

AskRaq

Okay, I borrowed these pics from a fellow member's website, because I need a grading lesson from the experts on here (no peeking, I'll post the links later).

Here are two Liberty Gold Spouse Proofs. I would like input as to (A) grade #1 & grade #2, and (B) what you visually see as the determining factors.

I know pics are harder than coins in hand.... but I can't hand you two coins to look at!

Coin #1:


Coin #2:

bstat1020

PF69DCAM on both?

66RB

70 UCAM

69 UCAM

ModernCoinMart

Since you felt like using our pictures here without permission, and insisted on trying to cut out the copyright mark with the company name, I guess I might as well post here.

Now off of that note, I do have to say that it is hard to grade proofs without seeing them in hand. Because I've seen them in hand I can tell you why the one that is a 69, is a 69. Also knowing the coins and pictures I can explain away things that might make you think the 70 is a 69. Proofs are especially vulnerable to having dust or lint on the holder making it look like the speck is on the coin itself.

AskRaq

ModernCoinMart, I didn't intend to "misuse" your fine pics...

I wanted a bit of unbiased input (because even in-hand, with proof coins, I can't tell the difference), so I simply made it a bit more difficult to locate the origin of the pics (for those that haven't been to your site) - and did state that I would post a direct link to the pictures (as posted on your site) after I received some input.

I do hope I didn't overstep by not stating upfront who I borrowed them from. Sorry ~

MadMarty

ModernCoinMart, I don't think AskRaq used the pictures in a negitive way, if you want them removed just ask and I'm sure she would edit the thread!

Cgb

69 and 69?

I honestly have no idea how to tell a 69 from a 70.

MadMarty

No matter what they are nice looking coins!

ModernCoinMart

<< <i>ModernCoinMart, I don't think AskRaq used the pictures in a negitive way, if you want them removed just ask and I'm sure she would edit the thread! >>



Nah Marty, not a big deal. We just appreciate being asked before our pictures are used by others, is all.

AskRaq

Coin #1 is NGC PF69-UCAM

Coin #2 is NGC PF70-UCAM

Now, other than the difference in lighting, which shows better detail in the 1st coin than the second... the only two things I noticed were these:

Coin #1 "may" have a mark near the rim at 3 o'clock on the Obverse (but I think it's just the slab)
Coin #2 "seems" to be missing a tiny bit of frost on the rim at 12 o'clock on the reverse & "may" have a minute mark above the 2nd T in states (which again, may be the slab)

Other than that... they seem to be about the same.

I would greatly appreciate any input on the two coins from ModernCoinMart, who has seen them in hand! (PS - will ask in the future!!)

ModernCoinMart

<< <i>Coin #1 "may" have a mark near the rim at 3 o'clock on the Obverse (but I think it's just the slab)
Coin #2 "seems" to be missing a tiny bit of frost on the rim at 12 o'clock on the reverse & "may" have a minute mark above the 2nd T in states (which again, may be the slab) >>



#1: You are right. There's a small bit of gunk at 3oc on the Obverse. That was the first thing I had noticed with that coin.
#2: That may actually beat a little bit of a rim burr, an extra piece of metal. Much of the crab you see in the fields is just dust and such on the holder. Occasionally you will get a small speck of dust under the plastic (but not on the coin) and that is annoying since you can't get rid of it unless you reholder it.

RYK

I have been told that NGC pays some stooge $30k/year to grade these coins and decide which get a 69 and which get a 70. I personally would not place much credence in these grades. The market may disagree with me now, but in the future, well, we'll see.

ModernCoinMart

<< <i>

<< <i>Coin #1 "may" have a mark near the rim at 3 o'clock on the Obverse (but I think it's just the slab)
Coin #2 "seems" to be missing a tiny bit of frost on the rim at 12 o'clock on the reverse & "may" have a minute mark above the 2nd T in states (which again, may be the slab) >>



#1: You are right. There's a small bit of gunk at 3oc on the Obverse. That was the first thing I had noticed with that coin.
#2: That may actually beat a little bit of a rim burr, an extra piece of metal, but it could be a very small mark. I don't remember exactly. Much of the crud you see in the fields is just dust and such on the holder. Occasionally you will get a small speck of dust under the plastic (but not on the coin) and that is annoying since you can't get rid of it unless you reholder it. >>

AskRaq

<< <i>#1: You are right. There's a small bit of gunk at 3oc on the Obverse. That was the first thing I had noticed with that coin.
#2: That may actually beat a little bit of a rim burr, an extra piece of metal. Much of the crab you see in the fields is just dust and such on the holder. Occasionally you will get a small speck of dust under the plastic (but not on the coin) and that is annoying since you can't get rid of it unless you reholder it. >>



So, in-hand.... what exactly did you see as the determining factor between the 69 & the 70 grades?

cmerlo1

I think it has to do with the obverse frost. If you compare the frost on #2 (the 70) with #1, it is more uniform in appearence, especially in the low points like the jaw line.

AskRaq

Thank you cmerlo1.... when I first noticed that I thought it must be the lighting.... but after your point, I think you may be right on that.

JohnMaben

George is one of the best coin photographers in the hobby and takes great pride in his work. We have invested heavily in our technology and library of images, which is by far the most comprehensive modern coin image library in existence. It is illegal to "borrow" a picture without permission. However, in the context of its use in this thread, I say no big deal. We have had many images and even our logo itself stolen and used by others on ebay. We must take it seriously.
John Maben
President
JMRC/ModernCoinMart

CarlWohlforth

<<I think it has to do with the obverse frost. If you compare the frost on #2 (the 70) with #1, it is more uniform in appearence, especially in the low points like the jaw line. >>

From the photos #2 looks much, much frostier on both sides and was my guess even before I read the replies. I take the specks and flecks to be dust on the flip, holder or camera lens. It would take a loupe and the coins in hand to identify other kinds of imperfections. It is the early strikes with the ultra, extra frosty cameo contrast that have the better chance of looking perfect.

The obverse of that 70 looks awesome! Proof gold, yummy.

Doogy

<< <i>I have been told that NGC pays some stooge $30k/year to grade these coins and decide which get a 69 and which get a 70. I personally would not place much credence in these grades. The market may disagree with me now, but in the future, well, we'll see. >>



you can probably bet both PCGS and NGC don't utilize their finest eyes on eyes on bulk submissions like high-grade moderns. i'm sure those are the new graders; the veteran graders are most likely relegated to the coins that pose the highest liability (in both dollar amounts and credientals) to the company should they get them wrong: high-dollar classics

JohnMaben

ummm... common sense here. Would it be overkill to require an Enzo Farrari technician to change the oil on your Chevy Cavalier? I don't know about PCGS, but at NGC the modern graders will frequently seek and get guidance from the more senior graders of classic coins when needed. All in all, they do a fine job.

jmski52

have been told that NGC pays some stooge $30k/year to grade these coins and decide which get a 69 and which get a 70. I personally would not place much credence in these grades. The market may disagree with me now, but in the future, well, we'll see.

This may be a valid point. When I am assessing a new Mint coin for possible submittal, I assess it one day (taking notes), and
then come back to it weeks later to look at it with fresh eyes. I might review my notes and look at the coin on 4 or 5 different occasions before I decide it's potential for making a grade. I "get to know the coin" and then I review the grading criteria one more time
before I finally put the coin away for safe-keeping.

I have no doubt that the PCGS graders are more skilled (with better eyes) but I doubt that they do as complete a review.

In these photos, you really can't distinguish between dust and very small contact marks - it's hard enough with the coin in-hand sometimes, but I'd have most probably given the 1st coin a 70 and the 2nd coin a 69, based on a first pass at the photos. The 2nd coin does have fresh metal showing on the rim above STATES on the reverse, and does seem to have an abundance of small trash, some of which could very well be small dings - the ones that concern me most are concentrated beneath Liberty's shoulder, but again - it might just be dust.