USA concept dollars stolen in France UPDATE - sighted on eBay !
dcarr
Posts: 8,697 ✭✭✭✭✭
UPDATE - Here they are:
Concept 1 Dollar Bessie Coleman, en argent FDC!!
Ten of the 27mm silver coins pictured below, certified by ICG PR69 DCAM, were stolen using a credit card number taken from a German citizen. The coins were shipped to the following address in April, 2007:
Andreca Pawel
19 Rue Theodore De Banville
Ile De France
Paris 75017
France
These coins are 1/2 troy ounce each. The obverse features American aviation pioneer Bessie Coleman. The reverse shows a soaring eagle, sun, and "USA". They are the only ones ever mailed to Europe. So if they turn up, they should be easy to identify as stolen property (unless melted).
Concept 1 Dollar Bessie Coleman, en argent FDC!!
Ten of the 27mm silver coins pictured below, certified by ICG PR69 DCAM, were stolen using a credit card number taken from a German citizen. The coins were shipped to the following address in April, 2007:
Andreca Pawel
19 Rue Theodore De Banville
Ile De France
Paris 75017
France
These coins are 1/2 troy ounce each. The obverse features American aviation pioneer Bessie Coleman. The reverse shows a soaring eagle, sun, and "USA". They are the only ones ever mailed to Europe. So if they turn up, they should be easy to identify as stolen property (unless melted).
0
Comments
I like your work but ... wow...
8 Reales Madness Collection
<< <i>No offense, Hyperion, but your reply seems a tad uncaring and harsh...
<< <i>I agree with Hyperion about a misleading title. I'll keep an eye out, but it's just silver rounds. >>
Mailing them to France doesn't make them World coins, but then again, I guess we can't blame the poster for trying to avoid the unkind comments he'd be likely to receive over on the US forum!
<< <i>I guess we can't blame the poster for trying to avoid the unkind comments he'd be likely to receive over on the US forum! >>
Umm, actually, he gets a little respect, there! The guy is the designer of at least two US coins (yes, real coins), and I think his Maine quarter is one of the better Statehood designs. He had some property stolen, so try and cut him a little slack, fer cryin' out loud. This topic is pertinent here because we Darksiders are more likely to have contact with the coin market in Europe.
A resume like this, and the guy gets no respect? Geez. Tuff crowd. A World Coin News COTY award winner, no less. That doesn't cut any slack on the Darkside?
8 Reales Madness Collection
Regardless of who you are and what you collect (or make, or sell), I would think somebody deserves a little more respect than that when reporting a theft. Times like this are not the times for semantics like, "Oh, they were just private tokens anyway."
It is even more disrespectful when the items in question are somebody's art- their own personal creation. Whether you like their creation or not, if it's being reported stolen, you should either 1) express sympathy, or 2) say, "I'll keep an eye open", or 3) just shut up.
It has nothing to do with Mr. Carr's numismatic celebrity. Just common courtesy.
If my Holey Coin Vest were stolen, and I mentioned it, would y'all say, "Who cares, it's just a bunch of damaged coins"?
Maybe you'd think that, but hopefully you wouldn't be so crass as to post it.
8 Reales Madness Collection
<< <i>I just hope none of you ever get something stolen, and report it, only to have the primary response be, "Who cares? It was crap, anyway."
Regardless of who you are and what you collect (or make, or sell), I would think somebody deserves a little more respect than that when reporting a theft. Times like this are not the times for semantics like, "Oh, they were just private tokens anyway."
It is even more disrespectful when the items in question are somebody's art- their own personal creation. Whether you like their creation or not, if it's being reported stolen, you should either 1) express sympathy, or 2) say, "I'll keep an eye open", or 3) just shut up.
It has nothing to do with Mr. Carr's numismatic celebrity. Just common courtesy.
If my Holey Coin Vest were stolen, and I mentioned it, would y'all say, "Who cares, it's just a bunch of damaged coins"?
Maybe you'd think that, but hopefully you wouldn't be so crass as to post it. >>
you have to relax, LordM, I was commenting the title was misleading (it's a private fantasy token, and not a real United States Mint Concept Dollar which was stolen while , say, being displayed abroad).. I was just suprised to see it was a theft transaction from a private dealer. Period, I dont know what pissed you off this morning to get you on your high horse, but please step off the the self-righteous soap box before you fall down and twist something.
<< <i>you have to relax, LordM, I was commenting the title was misleading (it's a private fantasy token, and not a real United States Mint Concept Dollar which was stolen while , say, being displayed abroad).. I was just suprised to see it was a theft transaction from a private dealer. Period, I dont know what pissed you off this morning to get you on your high horse, but please step off the the self-righteous soap box before you fall down and twist something. >>
I know what you were commenting on, and I understand why you commented on that.
It's beside the point, though, as I thought I'd illustrated.
If my pointing out your poor etiquette (even if your post was factual and the title of this thread was misleading you somehow into believing something different was stolen), the fact remains that something was stolen. That is the point, and I think Mr. Carr (or anyone else) deserves a little more decency than you've shown.
Does that mean I'm on a self-righteous high horse/soapbox? Maybe it does. I remember a time when Darksiders were a bit more charitable than their Liteside counterparts. I think Roman got my point.
Now I'll move on before I twist something.
<< <i> on before I twist something. >>
ROFL!!!!!
I'm afraid I have to side with LM. It doesn't matter what was stolen nor what you'd like to call them. Something was stolen. The Darksiders have put up with spammers and trolls before--but this is neither. I should hope anyone who suffers a theft should feel comfortable in asking our assistance. I really don't see how the initial remark was justified.
My wantlist & references
<< <i>Mailing them to France doesn't make them World coins >>
No, but that makes it much more likely they'll be spotted in Europe first, don't you think? I'm with the Holey One.
listen: we're not debating it should be mentioned, we're not debating lite vs. darkside, Im just saying the subject isn't a good indication of the content of the thread, period.
Bah, poo
Shame on you, dcarr, for misidentifying your privately-issued fantasy silver rounds as "USA concept dollars".
Shame on me for getting up on my high, self-righteous horse for defending you. I was obviously misguided in doing so. I'm still sorry that something of yours got stolen, but I was apparently mistaken in my earlier comments, because since they aren't really coins and they are not what you said they were, they don't really count.
Obviously, it was just "a run of the mill theft by of (sic) a private token producer".
Sorry, but we don't have any sympathy for private token producers here.
Especially not those who have the gall to call their products "USA concept dollars".
I suppose I just missed the whole point.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
<< <i>Oh, OK, then. That clears everything up.
Shame on you, dcarr, for misidentifying your privately-issued fantasy silver rounds as "USA concept dollars".
Shame on me for getting up on my high, self-righteous horse for defending you. I was obviously misguided in doing so. I'm still sorry that something of yours got stolen, but I was apparently mistaken in my earlier comments, because since they aren't really coins and they are not what you said they were, they don't really count.
Obviously, it was just "a run of the mill theft by of (sic) a private token producer".
Sorry, but we don't have any sympathy for private token producers here.
Especially not those who have the gall to call their products "USA concept dollars".
I suppose I just missed the whole point. >>
OMG.. this is really Really REALLY bothering you.... since when were you appointed the morality police for these boards anyway? feel free to reply with at least 8 paragraphs of material....
<< <i>You know Hyperion, you *could* have simply hit the back button on your browser and moved on to another thread as opposed to feeling obligated to post a snide comment seemingly enjoying the loss on the part of the OP. I believe the term is Schadenfreude. I think that is what LordM is objecting to... >>
enjoying the loss? is that what you think? I could see someone accusing me of Trolling but taking joy at the theft? no.
my only annoyance is his placement of his private issue on par with something generated by the mint...
he could have said, "hey, someone defrauded me, keep an eye out" and Id not have blinked. I opened the thread expecting something interesting in the news regarding some new US coin and got something else. period.
Obviously, you call 'em like you see 'em, too, and saw fit to insult me in addition to dcarr. So be it. You're just as within your rights as I was.
Bothering me? Nah, not any more. It did get under my skin, and you're right- I was in a rather fractious mood this morning.
Obviously a waste of electrons to call you out on it. Maybe I should have been the one to hit the *back* button in the first place.
PS:
The term "concept dollar" is a relatively new numismatic term. It was first used around 1999 and is a general categorization of privately-minted medals, approximately 27mm in diameter, whose purpose is to portray in physical form what a small dollar coin might look like in hand. So it is a legitimate term, similar to "so-called dollars" which is applied to crown-sized commemorative medals.
I agree my initial post was unduly harsh (as have been pointed out both people other than from here whose opinion I respect -not that I dont respect LordM, I enjoy his posts as Ive stated in the past, but I detected his hostility, and responded in-kind), but I Dont think I was wrong in principal... so I apologize for throwing my verbal weight around... I was really interested in reading about some heinous mint-theft and it turned out to be a private matter...
In any event, I apologize for the delicate sensibilities I might have offended.
<< <i>In any event, I apologize for the delicate sensibilities I might have offended.
wuss
<< <i>
<< <i>In any event, I apologize for the delicate sensibilities I might have offended.
wuss
I always seem to be "a day late, and a Concept Dollar short!! "
Hi to everybody here and hi to everybody over there.
Jerry
dcarr, hope this works out.
He seemed ready for a fight, and I was willing to give it.
I don't feel wrong about standing up for a principle, but it could've been done better, and less combatively.
His rude and then unrepentant attitude irritated me initially, but now that he's apologized for it, it is time for me to apologize in turn.
Now, let's please let this fargin' thread sink, unless of course evidence of dcarr's missing whateveryouwannacallems shows up.
However, I'm just small peanuts around here and it probably would not have garnered a response!
I know the FBI has one for high-value items.
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
Coins in Movies
Coins on Television
DANGLEN WAS CLIPPED FOR $3,300.
This same person has ripped off many dealers/eBayers in the past several years.
LordM was on point, congratulations. Hyperion was a little miffed by verbage, ok, he learned his lesson.
Theft is something we should all be concerned with, regardless of what was stolen and it is not incorrect to extend sympathies to the affected party.
At one point they very well could have been concept coins, even if they didn't make the grade...
Let darkness spread over the forum and hush the loud voices.
is that you end up being governed by inferiors. – Plato
<< <i>e...
Let darkness spread over the forum and hush the loud voices.
I agree wholeheartedly. Now pass around whatever it was you twisted up, MiLord!
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
<< <i>dcarr, consider yourself LUCKY!!!!!
DANGLEN WAS CLIPPED FOR $3,300.
This same person has ripped off many dealers/eBayers in the past several years. >>
Well, yes, the dollar amount in this case was "only" $405. Fortunately, I am the minter of these items and my actual production cost was about $80. But that is still 10 coins taken from a very limited production (100 total) that I won't be able to sell elsewhere.
Had the dollar amount been much higher, I would have made some thorough checks before shipping.
Now the stolen coins show up on eBay from a seller in France:
Concept 1 Dollar Bessie Coleman, en argent FDC!!
https://www.civitasgalleries.com
New coins listed monthly!
Josh Moran
CIVITAS Galleries, Ltd.
<< <i>There are some people I would like to forward this information to, but before I do. Are you saying that particular listing is without doubt one of the items you shipped to Pawel Andreica? >>
Yes, without a doubt. The ONLY Bessie Coleman concept dollars I EVER shipped overseas were the 10 to France. And now a seller in France has 10 listed for sale.
https://www.civitasgalleries.com
New coins listed monthly!
Josh Moran
CIVITAS Galleries, Ltd.
Todd
<< <i>I have a personal contact in the Ebay Fraud department. I could give him a call and see what he can do about the auction. He won't release any info on the person without the proper court order so your local agency would have to supply him with it.
Todd >>
Thanks,
At this point it is unknown if the eBay seller is the same entity as the scammer, or if they knowingly or unknowingly bought the coins from
someone else.
I'm not sure what eBay could do here, if anything. The coins were not originally "purchased" from me through eBay. The original order for the coins came to my web site outside of eBay.
Cathy
Todd
<< <i>I would think if you had opened any kind of police report you could notify ebay that it's stolen property. That IS against their rules. I would guess this isn't the guy who did the scamming--too blatant! So how do you report an international theft anyway????
Cathy >>
I know other people have been working to bust the scammer (Andreca Pawel). So it has been reported already. I hope the authorities will do something about it. In my case, I received a credit card order on my web site. I processed the order and shipped the coins. Six months later, the owner of the credit card (who lives in Germany) initiated a chargeback on their credit card because the card number was stolen and used fraudulently by the scammer in France. So the funds were taken back out of by bank account by the credit card company. So, from my point of view, the coins were "stolen" because they are gone and I never received any payment for them.
The authorities, however, will probably view this as "fraud" rather than "theft".