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The 1909-S PCGS MS67 use to be one of my biggest coin mysteries.

shylockshylock Posts: 4,288 ✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
This was the coin listed on the PCGS Pop Report I most wanted to see, and never appeared.

Finally, it did.

1909-S PCGS MS67

And, as Stewart Blay pointed out to me as he dragged me into the viewing room,

this coin has a major spot removal job flecked off to the lower left of the nose.

image

So much for coin mysteries.
Paul <> altered surfaces <> CoinGallery.org

Comments

  • speetyspeety Posts: 5,424 ✭
    Wonder why they left the spot on the N in UNITED? Nice coin but everytime i look at that coin i'm just gonna think about those two areas. I don't really like this coin as an MS-67

    JMO,
    Mark
    Want to buy an auction catalog for the William Hesslein Sale (December 2, 1926). Thanks to all those who have helped us obtain the others!!!

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,851 ✭✭✭✭✭
    They forgot to remove the spot next to the "N" unless it appeared after the coin was slabbed. What does "flecked off" mean? Is this a technique for removing spots? This is a new term to me. How are spots normally removed from copper?

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • CalGoldCalGold Posts: 2,608 ✭✭


    << <i>How are spots normally removed from copper? >>



    By flecking them off.

    CG
  • leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,489 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>They forgot to remove the spot next to the "N" unless it appeared after the coin was slabbed. What does "flecked off" mean? Is this a technique for removing spots? This is a new term to me. How are spots normally removed from copper? >>



    It takes a very steady hand, magnification and a small pointy tool that will not scratch the surface. Not that I have ever tried it but that little buger can really tear you up inside if you don't try to do SOMETHING about it! image


    Leo

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

  • OneCentOneCent Posts: 3,561 ✭
    I assume "spot" means dark, nasty carbon spot, no?

    I too am unimpressed by this MS-67 coin. Maybe the photo does not put the coin in its most attractive light.

    What does the coin look like in-hand Shylock?

    image
    imageimage
    Collector of Early 20th Century U.S. Coinage.
    ANA Member R-3147111
  • LeeGLeeG Posts: 12,162 ✭
    That's a nice catch to see that. Something going on, no color, a little way in to the surfaces from the mouth also?
  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Shylock, I am in total agreement with you. I noticed this mark as well in lot viewing.

    image


    There are a few excptions to be made for 1909-S Indians. They never have full first feather detail due to a lack of detail on the die, not because of strike.

    They are usually a paler color than other dates or have streaky planchets.

    But none of that excuses a big mark like that on a MS67RD.
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • coinpicturescoinpictures Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭
    Oh yeah, well fleck you, ya bunch of flecking idiots! image

    [I agree with others' comments; I don't like it as a 67, or even more importantly, at a $100K pricetag.]
    Numismotography

    1/2 Cents

    U.S. Revenue Stamps

    image
  • millenniummillennium Posts: 3,305
    Sheesh.....I'll find something nicer for $97,000+...That spot bothers me too.
    My Coin Find Videos
  • 66RB66RB Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I assume "spot" means dark, nasty carbon spot, no? >>




    No, you would be incorrect. "Spot" is now more properly and eloquently referred to as 'flecks of ebony tinting.'

    "Flecks of ebony tinting"!





    image
    Rob
    Lincoln set Colorless Set
    image
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,460 ✭✭✭✭✭
    bUT THE PLASSTIC MORE THAN MAKES UP FOR THE SPOT. dO YOU WANT TO BE #1 IN THE REGISTRY OR NOT? wELL THEN, STEP UP TO THE PLATE, YOU PUSSSSY!

    image
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,460 ✭✭✭✭✭
    PS - It was THE coin that put Barry over the top. BUT, if there was a real showdown, Stewarts set would have won hands down.
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
  • OneCentOneCent Posts: 3,561 ✭


    << <i>bUT THE PLASSTIC MORE THAN MAKES UP FOR THE SPOT. dO YOU WANT TO BE #1 IN THE REGISTRY OR NOT? wELL THEN, STEP UP TO THE PLATE, YOU PUSSSSY!

    image >>



    Oh man, that is funny...imageimageimage

    image
    imageimage
    Collector of Early 20th Century U.S. Coinage.
    ANA Member R-3147111
  • fcfc Posts: 12,793 ✭✭✭
    bUT THE PLASSTIC MORE THAN MAKES UP FOR THE SPOT. dO YOU WANT TO BE #1 IN THE REGISTRY OR NOT? wELL THEN, STEP UP TO THE PLATE, YOU PUSSSSY!

    lol. that is gold. nicely played.

    excellent catch!!
  • shylockshylock Posts: 4,288 ✭✭✭
    Lakesammman --

    PS - It was THE coin that put Barry over the top. BUT, if there was a real showdown, Stewarts set would have won hands down.

    Let's face it. Stewart's the greatest small cent collector of our time.

    This guy can't even part with his doubles.

    Paul <> altered surfaces <> CoinGallery.org
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,419 ✭✭✭✭✭
    To be clear, we are talking about the light area directly to the left of the upper lip, correct?
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • CladiatorCladiator Posts: 18,252 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image
  • yellowjacketyellowjacket Posts: 1,809 ✭
    I felt fortunate to have lost ONLY $150 on a pretty slabbed Lincoln. When I went to cross, PCGS pointed out the "flecked off" spot on the reverse. It had the same look as this Indian. I never saw it until it returned DNC. The money lost was a "lesson learned." And worth every penny.

    Now I look for such things when handling any copper.

    Garrow
  • mnmcoinmnmcoin Posts: 2,165 ✭


    << <i>Wonder why they left the spot on the N in UNITED? Nice coin but everytime i look at that coin i'm just gonna think about those two areas. I don't really like this coin as an MS-67

    JMO,
    Mark >>



    And the spot on the top right of the T in UNITED?

    morris
    "Repent, for the kindom of heaven is at hand."
    ** I would take a shack on the Rock over a castle in the sand !! **
    Don't take life so seriously...nobody gets out alive.

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  • MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,550 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>this coin has a major spot removal job flecked off to the lower left of the nose. >>


    Nothing like paying close attention to detail...nice catch that really tells the story on this coin. I agree with speety...If I owned it, I could never look at it without focusing on the spots...especially for that kind of money!
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,460 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Once you know what to look for, it's pretty easy. The luster is different, there is occasionally some staining still at the periphery, the die lines are missing, etc.

    I PM'd Shylock once a few years ago to ask him about one of his coins I had seen a picture of, pointing out a spot removal that he hadn't noticed. He took it well. image
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,419 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Once you know what to look for, it's pretty easy. The luster is different, there is occasionally some staining still at the periphery, the die lines are missing, etc.

    Tim - What are "die lines" and why would they be missing?
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,313 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If the die lines are gone then I would assume the luster is not 100% (ie impaired) in that area. Correct?

    roadrunner
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • lloydmincylloydmincy Posts: 1,861 ✭
    I have seen all of Stewart's coins. No offense, most of the others look like they have been dragged in the mud compared to his.
    The Accumulator - Dark Lloyd of the Sith

    image
  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    though i've never done it myself, i've been told that you can place copper in an oven, heat to a specified temperature and then "fleck off" carbon spots with a toothpick.
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,851 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i> Once you know what to look for, it's pretty easy. The luster is different, there is occasionally some staining still at the periphery, the die lines are missing, etc.

    Tim - What are "die lines" and why would they be missing? >>



    I think he means "flow lines" and they would be missing because someone scraped them off when they scraped off the carbon spot.




    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That may have been doctored by a real doctor as it looks lasered off image

    Great catch as it doesn't hit you in the face on the Slab pics, only the HA cartoon blow ups.image
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 12,148 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Question:

    Just to the left of the flecked off area, I see what appears to be a dark line going slightly southeast that abruptly ends in the flecked area.

    Is that darkish line the remnant of the spot that was removed?
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,460 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Look, Andy, after a 6 pack and a couple Laphroigs, die/flow lines are all the same to me. It was 8:11 PM for Pete's sake! image
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
  • shylockshylock Posts: 4,288 ✭✭✭
    Lakesammman - Once you know what to look for, it's pretty easy. The luster is different, there is occasionally some staining still at the periphery, the die lines are missing, etc.

    I PM'd Shylock once a few years ago to ask him about one of his coins I had seen a picture of, pointing out a spot removal that he hadn't noticed. He took it well.

    Yes he did. And yes I did image

    I remember it well, an 1872 IH that wasn't done as well as this. Closeups revealed tiny pinmarks that scraped away carbon. And it didn't reflect in the PCGS grade, they missed it.

    Lakes (Tim Larson) was my mentor when it comes to IH's. He taught me more about them, mostly via emails, than I ever learned in
    books, here, or on the bourse floor.

    The coin Lakes mentioned, an 1872 PCGS MS65RB. Nice...

    image

    ...until you closeup the pinmarks on the lower left reverse.

    image

    Ouch.

    Paul <> altered surfaces <> CoinGallery.org
  • FrankcoinsFrankcoins Posts: 4,571 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    this coin has a major spot removal job flecked off to the lower left of the nose.

    >>



    Could this not be a planchet flaw? Look Northwest of the N in ONE on the reverse. Then again the poor planchet would also seem to elimate the 67 grade.





    image
    Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
  • LongshotLongshot Posts: 353
    I've got a 1909S indian that got body bagged by PCGS for corrosion! That sucked.image

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