You guys are too tough on dealers!

GoldenEyeNumismatics

I often hear people complaining about how "whenever you're selling a coin is overgraded, and whenever your buying it is PQ" when it comes to transactions with dealers.

Quite honestly, I rarely ever hear dealers tell someone their coin is overgraded--and when they do it is usually because the coin actually IS overgraded.

Doogy

<< <i>I often hear people complaining about how "whenever you're selling a coin is overgraded, and whenever your buying it is PQ" when it comes to transactions with dealers.

Quite honestly, I rarely ever hear dealers tell someone their coin is overgraded--and when they do it is usually because the coin actually IS overgraded. >>




let's face it, those of us on this forum are merely a very small percentage of the coin (US and world) collecting community. Many new collectors are full of energy, but too naive to protect themselves. Many do fall prey to coin dealers that oversell or overcharge them for given coins. A new collector can do one of two things: feel "burned" and exit the hobby to find another endeavor......or......buy some books, join coin forums and or/ANA, and vow to never let that happen again. Many of us on these forums are the latter; although i luckily was never burned badly early on, i had my fair share of run-ins with grumpy overcharging dealers that could care less about whether the coin he was selling was cleaned and overgraded. I vowed to study up, and put that behind me.

let's face it; in most industries, it is the bottom 10% that drag down the public perception for the whole group. Coin dealers are no different. Whether you're a very honest and collector friendly dealer that sells AND buys fairly, or some bottom feeder that sets up shop to take advantage of the elderly and their deceased relative's collection, sometimes the trade gets painted with the same brush. I think most of us here know you dealers at least by reputation, if not having at least done business, and can say that we have some of the more honest dealers in the country that choose to post to these boards (both the US and darkside board). With that being said, there are still that bottom 10% out there that could care less about ethics, the ANA/PNG, coin forums and treating their customers with respect. Until these guys get weeded out due to attrition, there will always be a love-hate mentaility between collectors and dealers.

cmerlo1

I don't think anyone disagrees that there are some GREAT dealers out there, who are fair and do appreciate their customers. Speaking from personal experience, I've never tried selling anything to them, because my experience with 99% of the other dealers I've tried to sell to has been horrible, and I simply won't sell to anyone in person any more. Try selling a lesser-known Cherrypicker's Guide variety or VAM at a show. Chances are you'll get laughed at by just about every dealer there as they lowball you and tell you it's worthless because there's no market for that coin. Agreed, maybe not in the coin shop or show business, but online, there definitely is. Try telling a dealer that you think HIS slabbed coin is overgraded and see what kind of reaction you get- I was asked to leave a shop once for doing just that, to a guy who told me the same thing about a coin I'd brought in a week before. I think the point of the other thread about this issue is that many dealers are so dismissive and downright rude when passing on a coin that people develop a bad feeling about selling to them. I see this behavior at every show, the whole time I'm there. Maybe the market would be better and maybe the business at the show would be better if those dealers just worked on their people skills a little, and understood that the person trying to sell to them may be a customer in the future. I understand that dealers need to make a living, and I certainly appreciate what they do, but I also believe that their making a living can be done in a polite, ethical, educational way.

--Christian

a039

Part of the reason for the collector perceiving most dealer's as rude is simply because one is passionate about coins and the other just doing his job.

We are excited about our Lincoln 1914 D in F12 and the dealer has seen a million, we want him to comment favorably and he just grunts so we are offended.

Its kind of like Cops who think they are going to change the world and after 10 years goes by, just wants to go home safe everyday.

walkerman

<< <i>

<< <i>I often hear people complaining about how "whenever you're selling a coin is overgraded, and whenever your buying it is PQ" when it comes to transactions with dealers.

Quite honestly, I rarely ever hear dealers tell someone their coin is overgraded--and when they do it is usually because the coin actually IS overgraded. >>




let's face it, those of us on this forum are merely a very small percentage of the coin (US and world) collecting community. Many new collectors are full of energy, but too naive to protect themselves. Many do fall prey to coin dealers that oversell or overcharge them for given coins. A new collector can do one of two things: feel "burned" and exit the hobby to find another endeavor......or......buy some books, join coin forums and or/ANA, and vow to never let that happen again. Many of us on these forums are the latter; although i luckily was never burned badly early on, i had my fair share of run-ins with grumpy overcharging dealers that could care less about whether the coin he was selling was cleaned and overgraded. I vowed to study up, and put that behind me.

let's face it; in most industries, it is the bottom 10% that drag down the public perception for the whole group. Coin dealers are no different. Whether you're a very honest and collector friendly dealer that sells AND buys fairly, or some bottom feeder that sets up shop to take advantage of the elderly and their deceased relative's collection, sometimes the trade gets painted with the same brush. I think most of us here know you dealers at least by reputation, if not having at least done business, and can say that we have some of the more honest dealers in the country that choose to post to these boards (both the US and darkside board). With that being said, there are still that bottom 10% out there that could care less about ethics, the ANA/PNG, coin forums and treating their customers with respect. Until these guys get weeded out due to attrition, there will always be a love-hate mentaility between collectors and dealers. >>





A sane and rational assessment and a practical approach to the subject at hand. Dave W




David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com

mrearlygold

Every dog has his day

darktone

I took 20 PCGS coins to a small show this weekend and tried to sell them. The first dealer told me that PCGS was not a good grader and that if they were in NGC slabs he could give more money. I also had some raw coins but they were only offering about half of bid. I also had two Double mint sets and I told each dealer that I wanted more than bid for both sets. Every dealer took the time to look at the mint sets and offered me less than bid. As usual it was a waste of time to try to sell to small dealers at a small show. Most of these part time guy's are just not good enough graders to buy stuff right so they cut the offer down low enough so they can't get hurt. They are probably right by doing this so they don't loose money but they sure come off looking like crooks to most of the public.

Bochiman

<< <i>I often hear people complaining about how "whenever you're selling a coin is overgraded, and whenever your buying it is PQ" when it comes to transactions with dealers.

Quite honestly, I rarely ever hear dealers tell someone their coin is overgraded--and when they do it is usually because the coin actually IS overgraded. >>



Had a crap-dealer tell me the NGC graded Ikes (MS65/MS66) were no better than AU....
Ummmm, I am ok with a dealer saying "no thanks" if they have enough or don't want to carry something (he did have this type of material so it wasn't out of bounds, and he carries any slab basically, so he isn't a PCGS "snob").
Listening to him say they were AU made me laugh. I just smiled, shook my head and said "ummm....right"
(they were dupes for me so I just ebayed 'em)

If he would have said he thought they were MS64 or even MS63, that would have been different. Just proved to me he doesn't know what he is talking about.

darktone

there was that other time a dealer offered me $20 for a PCGS MS64 red indian cent I think it was an 1897 if I remember right. I took a raw MS64 $10 liberty once just to a show just to have fun. Most would not even make an offer and others would only give XF money. I took a PCGS MS66 $5 liberty to a small show once to ask for offers and not one dealer was a buyer or would even make an offer although they all called the same wholesaler and left him a message to see if he was interested- I would have loved to seen his face when he got his calls.

fc

i find all dealers are like how darktone describes no matter the stuff being sold.

you ask them why they do not carry more stock in their stores...
they say nothing good comes in.

well, i say i have some to sell... then they low ball you an offer.

they really do not want anything unless they screw you and can make EASY money.

this is basically brick and mortar we are talking about here. cards, comics, antiques, etc..

poorguy

<< <i>i find all dealers are like how darktone describes no matter the stuff being sold.

you ask them why they do not carry more stock in their stores...
they say nothing good comes in.

well, i say i have some to sell... then they low ball you an offer.

they really do not want anything unless they screw you and can make EASY money.

this is basically brick and mortar we are talking about here. cards, comics, antiques, etc.. >>



That explains the tone of the majority of your posts.

coltgus

A dealer ( or anyone else ) should not comment on the quality or condition of a customer's coin unless asked. If a dealer said my coin was overgraded that would the end of the discussion and I would never do business with that dealer again. Also, I would never comment on a dealer's coin in a negative way.

fc

That explains the tone of the majority of your posts.

lol, do not make me search for anaconda on this BBoard to remind
me why people should be very careful buying your wares.

you are the exact dealer one has to be wary of. AU50 to MS61 is
probably the last thread that was exciting.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>i find all dealers are like how darktone describes no matter the stuff being sold.

you ask them why they do not carry more stock in their stores...
they say nothing good comes in.

well, i say i have some to sell... then they low ball you an offer.

they really do not want anything unless they screw you and can make EASY money.

this is basically brick and mortar we are talking about here. cards, comics, antiques, etc.. >>



There is a difference between making easy money and making a successfull living.

If someone offers you 75% of bid on a $200 coin that they're just gonna have sitting in their shop, the $50 they make isn't really that much. It might wind up sitting therefor months or years before it sells.

Money is the name of the game. The dealer often doesn't give a dam how much money you have in the coin and what your looking to get for it--they just want to be able to sell it and make a decent profit. You have to If they did nothing but flip coins and make $10-$20 on each piece, they're not gonna be able to survive.

poorguy

<< <i>That explains the tone of the majority of your posts.

lol, do not make me search for anaconda on this BBoard to remind
me why people should be very careful buying your wares.

you are the exact dealer one has to be wary of. AU50 to MS61 is
probably the last thread that was exciting. >>



You are clueless. Just because our inventory is probably the most visible on the net, you single us out? At least I've got the balls to post here and deal with peons like you. If you still think it was horribly overgraded, you must have missed the last 25% of the posts on that thread before it was locked.

Doogy

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>I often hear people complaining about how "whenever you're selling a coin is overgraded, and whenever your buying it is PQ" when it comes to transactions with dealers.

Quite honestly, I rarely ever hear dealers tell someone their coin is overgraded--and when they do it is usually because the coin actually IS overgraded. >>




let's face it, those of us on this forum are merely a very small percentage of the coin (US and world) collecting community. Many new collectors are full of energy, but too naive to protect themselves. Many do fall prey to coin dealers that oversell or overcharge them for given coins. A new collector can do one of two things: feel "burned" and exit the hobby to find another endeavor......or......buy some books, join coin forums and or/ANA, and vow to never let that happen again. Many of us on these forums are the latter; although i luckily was never burned badly early on, i had my fair share of run-ins with grumpy overcharging dealers that could care less about whether the coin he was selling was cleaned and overgraded. I vowed to study up, and put that behind me.

let's face it; in most industries, it is the bottom 10% that drag down the public perception for the whole group. Coin dealers are no different. Whether you're a very honest and collector friendly dealer that sells AND buys fairly, or some bottom feeder that sets up shop to take advantage of the elderly and their deceased relative's collection, sometimes the trade gets painted with the same brush. I think most of us here know you dealers at least by reputation, if not having at least done business, and can say that we have some of the more honest dealers in the country that choose to post to these boards (both the US and darkside board). With that being said, there are still that bottom 10% out there that could care less about ethics, the ANA/PNG, coin forums and treating their customers with respect. Until these guys get weeded out due to attrition, there will always be a love-hate mentaility between collectors and dealers. >>





A sane and rational assessment and a practical approach to the subject at hand. Dave W




David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com >>





thanks Dave! If i can use your business as an example.................

If I have this to sell..............




would Mr. Weygant be a buyer to have this slabbed and put in his store (or online store)? probably not. But.....I would hazard a guess if a kid or an adult walked in with that worn Ike, he would politely decline the offer to buy it and maybe start a conversation about coins in general. I use this old worn Ike as merely an example of how some dealers see coins that come through their door; many don't take into account the fact that the kid or adult may not buy that day, but may come back months later when they have learned quite a bit and have a amount in mind that they want to spend.

For many new collectors, kids and adults alike, the B&M coin dealer is the first line of marketing that the hobby has; portray a bad impression by acting like an a-hole, and that collector won't soon forget it. Take some time to talk about the hobby and it's many nuances, and you may have just sparked a new collector for life! Many collectors....dare is say "most?" will never find our forums here (PCGS or NGC forums) and their only contact with the hobby is through the various weekly/montly coin publications that they pick up as well as their local dealers. If they get equal exposure to each of these sources, and they run across far too many grumpy and/or shady dealers, can you blame them for leaving the hobby?

I think coin dealers in the US have a RESPONSIBILITY to nurture new collectors, as this is where your revenue stream in the future is coming from. In addition, we've had a huge influx of kids that have started collecting, and look to adults to guide them along and not mislead them with either misinformation or just plain snubbing them. I think most will admit that kids spend far too much time on computer games and other things, and not enough time on old-school educational based hobbies like coin collecting. We would be well served in the US to get kids involved from a young age. For an example; i took my one-year old daughter to a local coin show a few months back. She was BY FAR the youngest one there, many parents may have been hesitent to bring such a young child for the fear of them being a little sticky fingered. Most dealers have the "good stuff" in cases, so i thought there wasn't any harm in bringing her. I can tell you this about the experience; i have never seen a child bring so much joy to a bunch of coin dealers before. some of the older kids were busy talking to the various dealers, and i was thrilled to see this. However, when we rolled up (she was in a stroller), many of their faces lit up and many dealers quickly found the most shiny coin they could to give to her to look at. My daughter LOVED seeing the many proof and UNC coins that they gave her to look at (many were slabbed, so no chance of harm to the coin). In fact, one dealer reached under his table and gave her an NGC Kenndy half (proof, fairly recent mintage) as a gift! she clutched onto that coin for the entire show and was fascinated with the deep cameo mirrors. She still has the coin, and keeps it in her toy box as she always want to carry it around and look at it.

My point to this story is this; I believe dealers often overlook who the person is offering the coins in a shortsighted attempt to either brush them off, or to get the best deal they have. Maybe if some dealers would spend less time berating a potential client's offerings, and either probing what else they may have to sell or even what they may be interested in buying, they would do far better for their business and the hobby at large. For those of you that haven't met Tony Tumonis (Tucson, AZ; ran for ANA Govenor, but fell short in the voting), he is the epitome of what a dealer can do to foster "hip pocket" education to new collectors. At local shows, he talks to new collectors about the history behind a certain coin and other interesting things, which is usually enough to foster an interest in that coin issue for the new collector. That kinda things serves two purposes: helps the dealer instruct the collector on the coin and it's history, and engenders a sense of trust that the collector may start to develop for the dealer. This new collector may become fascinated with this new series, allowing him/her to be put on a coin want list that the dealer maintains, thereby creating a long-term realationship. To many of you dealers on this forum, i'm preaching to the choir...........however, far too few coins dealers out there actually practice any of the above. Because of that, i worry where our hobby is headed if there are tons of students, and not enough honest "teachers" to go around.

Doug

roadrunner

When collectors show me stuff at shows I tell them what I really think. If I like it tell them so and request a price. If they are unwilling to price I'll tell them where I'd be at. If a coin is just not for sale and they ask an opinion, I'll tell them the max range they can get for it. While this rarely works, I'm not up for games or lying about a coin I think is nice just to rip it.

That's all different when a professional dealer comes by. They are supposed to know their stuff. Considering 90% of all retail sales by dealers are not very good deals, it is certainly worthwhile to be "hard" on dealers. Or do you want that 90% to be 100%?

roadrunner

a039

<< <i>

<< <i>That explains the tone of the majority of your posts.

lol, do not make me search for anaconda on this BBoard to remind
me why people should be very careful buying your wares.

you are the exact dealer one has to be wary of. AU50 to MS61 is
probably the last thread that was exciting. >>



You are clueless. Just because our inventory is probably the most visible on the net, you single us out? At least I've got the balls to post here and deal with peons like you. If you still think it was horribly overgraded, you must have missed the last 25% of the posts on that thread before it was locked. >>



I think we found Laura's alt.

ScarsdaleCoin

wow maybe the WWE can have a dealer vs collector match one night

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>I often hear people complaining about how "whenever you're selling a coin is overgraded, and whenever your buying it is PQ" when it comes to transactions with dealers.

Quite honestly, I rarely ever hear dealers tell someone their coin is overgraded--and when they do it is usually because the coin actually IS overgraded. >>




let's face it, those of us on this forum are merely a very small percentage of the coin (US and world) collecting community. Many new collectors are full of energy, but too naive to protect themselves. Many do fall prey to coin dealers that oversell or overcharge them for given coins. A new collector can do one of two things: feel "burned" and exit the hobby to find another endeavor......or......buy some books, join coin forums and or/ANA, and vow to never let that happen again. Many of us on these forums are the latter; although i luckily was never burned badly early on, i had my fair share of run-ins with grumpy overcharging dealers that could care less about whether the coin he was selling was cleaned and overgraded. I vowed to study up, and put that behind me.

let's face it; in most industries, it is the bottom 10% that drag down the public perception for the whole group. Coin dealers are no different. Whether you're a very honest and collector friendly dealer that sells AND buys fairly, or some bottom feeder that sets up shop to take advantage of the elderly and their deceased relative's collection, sometimes the trade gets painted with the same brush. I think most of us here know you dealers at least by reputation, if not having at least done business, and can say that we have some of the more honest dealers in the country that choose to post to these boards (both the US and darkside board). With that being said, there are still that bottom 10% out there that could care less about ethics, the ANA/PNG, coin forums and treating their customers with respect. Until these guys get weeded out due to attrition, there will always be a love-hate mentaility between collectors and dealers. >>





A sane and rational assessment and a practical approach to the subject at hand. Dave W




David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com >>





thanks Dave! If i can use your business as an example.................

If I have this to sell..............




would Mr. Weygant be a buyer to have this slabbed and put in his store (or online store)? probably not. But.....I would hazard a guess if a kid or an adult walked in with that worn Ike, he would politely decline the offer to buy it and maybe start a conversation about coins in general. I use this old worn Ike as merely an example of how some dealers see coins that come through their door; many don't take into account the fact that the kid or adult may not buy that day, but may come back months later when they have learned quite a bit and have a amount in mind that they want to spend.

For many new collectors, kids and adults alike, the B&M coin dealer is the first line of marketing that the hobby has; portray a bad impression by acting like an a-hole, and that collector won't soon forget it. Take some time to talk about the hobby and it's many nuances, and you may have just sparked a new collector for life! Many collectors....dare is say "most?" will never find our forums here (PCGS or NGC forums) and their only contact with the hobby is through the various weekly/montly coin publications that they pick up as well as their local dealers. If they get equal exposure to each of these sources, and they run across far too many grumpy and/or shady dealers, can you blame them for leaving the hobby?

I think coin dealers in the US have a RESPONSIBILITY to nurture new collectors, as this is where your revenue stream in the future is coming from. In addition, we've had a huge influx of kids that have started collecting, and look to adults to guide them along and not mislead them with either misinformation or just plain snubbing them. I think most will admit that kids spend far too much time on computer games and other things, and not enough time on old-school educational based hobbies like coin collecting. We would be well served in the US to get kids involved from a young age. For an example; i took my one-year old daughter to a local coin show a few months back. She was BY FAR the youngest one there, many parents may have been hesitent to bring such a young child for the fear of them being a little sticky fingered. Most dealers have the "good stuff" in cases, so i thought there wasn't any harm in bringing her. I can tell you this about the experience; i have never seen a child bring so much joy to a bunch of coin dealers before. some of the older kids were busy talking to the various dealers, and i was thrilled to see this. However, when we rolled up (she was in a stroller), many of their faces lit up and many dealers quickly found the most shiny coin they could to give to her to look at. My daughter LOVED seeing the many proof and UNC coins that they gave her to look at (many were slabbed, so no chance of harm to the coin). In fact, one dealer reached under his table and gave her an NGC Kenndy half (proof, fairly recent mintage) as a gift! she clutched onto that coin for the entire show and was fascinated with the deep cameo mirrors. She still has the coin, and keeps it in her toy box as she always want to carry it around and look at it.

>>



I could not agree with you more. There's a great B+M within an hour long drive from my house, and I've been going there since age 4. This guy ALWAYS took the time to help me kindly, and patiently waited as I would pick through the junk box and Indian Head Cents, junk silver, etc and make my >$10 purchases. Since then I have given him many tens of thousands of dollars in business. I trust him more than any other numismatist I know, and still go to his shop often.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>You have to If they did nothing but flip coins and make $10-$20 on each piece, they're not gonna be able to survive. >>



If there is $500 to be made on a coin that a dealer can buy from a walkin seller why does it mostly seem like the dealer feels that he is entitled to $480 of the $500 while the walkin seller gets $20?