1917 MPL Cent, does it exist?
BWRC
Posts: 1,448 ✭✭✭
Quote for Dr. Sol Taylors "ONE OF A KIND"
Another nearly unique Lincoln cent is the 1917 matte proof cent. Around 1974 it was believed to be unique. However, since then a second piece has surfaced. Only one has been certified. So for now, it might be considered unique.
Well, does it or doesn't it exist?
Another nearly unique Lincoln cent is the 1917 matte proof cent. Around 1974 it was believed to be unique. However, since then a second piece has surfaced. Only one has been certified. So for now, it might be considered unique.
Well, does it or doesn't it exist?
Brian Wagner Rare Coins, Specializing in PCGS graded, Shield, Liberty and Buffalo Nickels varieties.
0
Comments
-Paul
I really don't know but Dr. Sol Taylor who is a Lincoln cent expert and author on these coins says it does.
John
-Paul
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>I really don't know but Dr. Sol Taylor who is a Lincoln cent expert and author on these coins says it does. >>
Brian,
I have been a member of Sol's SLCC for 24 years. In all his books (4 editions) and in Lincoln Sense, I have never seen him state that a 1917 Matte proof Lincoln actually exists. You say one has been certified. May I ask, what certification service? Where is the coin? etc. Over the years I have heard MANY stories about the so called 1917 matte proof. Somehow, nobody seems to be able to produce it and have one of the major grading services certify it. A REAL 1917 matte proof that was certified by PCGS or NGC or even ANACS would be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. The grading services would really check it before accepting it. Therefore, until someone produces a certified 1917 matte proof I will continue to believe these stories are just some person's thoughts about such a coin. JMHO. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>I've got one! It's not certified and I'd take a picture of it if I could remember where I put it. I know know it's with the 1910 S VDB, but I caan't find it right now. >>
yeah right..............drwstr123...wanna see my 1949 proof lincoln?
Collector of Early 20th Century U.S. Coinage.
ANA Member R-3147111
But drwstr123 probably believes in his own mind that he has a 1917 matte proof also. He probably feels that he didn't realize he had this valuable coin and let it get lost with his other pennies. Someday he hopes to find this coin. If you do find it drwstr123, send it in to PCGS right away and get it certified. THEN come on this forum and tell all of us we were wrong. Good luck. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
I have been a member of Sol's SLCC for 24 years. In all his books (4 editions) and in Lincoln Sense, I have never seen him state that a 1917 Matte proof Lincoln actually exists. You say one has been certified. May I ask, what certification service? Where is the coin? etc. Over the years I have heard MANY stories about the so called 1917 matte proof. Somehow, nobody seems to be able to produce it and have one of the major grading services certify it. A REAL 1917 matte proof that was certified by PCGS or NGC or even ANACS would be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. The grading services would really check it before accepting it. Therefore, until someone produces a certified 1917 matte proof I will continue to believe these stories are just some person's thoughts about such a coin. JMHO. Steve
"I never stated one exists or is certified I was only quoting what Dr Taylor wrote in the article below that I have provided the link to"
Here is the link to Dr Taylors article: In the 5th paragraph down he talks about the 1917 MPL cent.
Text
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Sure looks like Dr Sol Taylor believes in the 1917 MPL. At least his article reads that way?
More fuel for the fire,
PCGS coin facts about the 1917 Lincoln Cent.
Scroll down to the 1917 date
Text
<< <i>The 1917 MPL is in a vault somewhere with a 1964 Peace dollar and a 1974 aluminum cent. >>
And stockpiles of Ameros.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>But I am very comfortable with using 420 because I believe only about 200 currently remain in hands of collectors. >>
What would have happened to the others -- spent through the years, lost, still sqiurreled away in the back of a trunk somewhere?
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
First, Steve is right that nobody really knows the exact quantity of 1909 VDB matte proof cents minted or sold. Any quantity is an estimate. Even the coiner’s journals of struck and accepted coins disagree by about 12%. Sales records don’t exist. Here are some bits of info for clarity on the 1909 VDB.
1) The mint did not provide a quantity for 1909-VDB proofs when they gave hobby publishers lists of proof coins struck from 1858 forward in 1939. On the page listing minor coin proofs, under 1909 cents, there is the following notation: “Indian head 2,175; Lincoln 2,618 with VDB and without VDB not separated.” (There’s no guarantee this list is correct – the original log books seem to have vanished.)
2) The 420 quantity is not mentioned in any original documents. It appears to have been a later calculation by persons unknown.
3) The quantity of 1,194 is in one of coiner Robert Clark's journals; the quantity 1,000 appears in another journal of his.
4) An interesting, but unsubstantiated, comment occurs in The Numismatist of March 1959: The [1909 V.D.B.] proofs were mostly purchased by mint employees who sent them to their friends, so that this variety in proof is very scarce. (Article titled “The Old Lincoln Cent” attributed to Herman L. Boraker.)
5) Examination of NGC and PCGS population reports suggest neither 420 nor 1,194/1,000 are consistent with survival of other matte proof Lincolns. If one allows for reslabbing and body bags at the same rate as other matte proof cents, then the quantity of extant 1909 VDB should be between 450 and 600 – not far off from empirical estimates. However, TPG data are so badly contaminated that +/- 100 (or more) is possible, making Steve's estimate of 200 just as valid as 400 or 600.
6) Lastly, a small hoard of the coins would easily account for the TPG discrepancy.
Bottom line : nobody knows for sure. (If I find a cigar box full, I’ll market them very slowly.)
What has disturbed me about MPL mintage figures is the lack of CONSISTENCY by the Red Book (Whitman Publishing). For over 50 years, until 1998 the mintage on the 1909VDB was always reported as 420 and the 1909 plain (nonVDB) was 2,198 or a total 1909 Lincoln proof mintage of 2,618. In 1998 Kevin Flynn's research at the archives showed that 1,194 of the VDB proofs had been "delivered to the coiner" and that 3,546 of both the VDB and plain 1909 Lincoln proofs had been delivered to the coiner and therefore 2,352 was the plain number. The Red Book changed the mintages based on that research. Now in the 2008 Red Book they changed the 1909 plain mintage again to 2,618. Why? Because in another log book at the mint there was notations that 1,000 1909VDB matte proofs and 2,618 plain matte Lincolns "were accepted" by the coiner. Logically, and for consistency, in 2008 if they changed the plain number they should have also changed the VDB number. But they didn't do that so now the 2008 Red Book shows 1,194 VDB and 2,618 plain for 1909 Lincoln mintage.
I know all of this is confusing to most MPL collectors, but if you have followed the reported mintages over the last 10 years in the Red Book you can see the confusion. As Roger stated above and I wholeheartedly agree, NOBODY really knows the correct mintages. Why change something that was a constant for 50 years of reporting unless you have undisputable proof that it is the correct number.
The one thing we can all agree upon is the mintages on each of the nine MPL's are small. The historically reported total for all 9 coins is 15,314 and even with all the changes the Red Book did the totals for all the MPL's together don't change much. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry