1733 thaler auction on ebay

worldcoinguy

A few things about this auction smell funny. Isn't a VF-40 actually an EF-40? I have seen oversized NGC coins in open plastic holders, but does PCGS do the same thing?

link to ebay auction

TwoKopeiki

Something is off about this coin. Perhaps the lack of sharpness in the strike or odd wear pattern... If authentic - looks broad-struck with some planchet roughness still present.

coinpictures

Also, it appears to be an open flip, not sealed... and "PCGS" is nowhere on the flip...

I would stay away, but that's just me.

3Mark

Unusual, but there is one in the pop report and PCGS (as far as I know) has never used there big slab for large thalers.3Mark

newbiecollector

Nice coin but not for 1100 bucks start price

DCH

Cast counterfeit, and not a very good one.
This one is worse....


What's the max diameter that fits in a slab?

Bailathacl

Seller has sold some high ticket items before, for whatever that's worth....

3Mark

<< <i>Cast counterfeit, and not a very good one.
This one is worse....


What's the max diameter that fits in a slab? >>




And what makes you say that it is a cast counterfeit? Or the Poland 1637 thaler? Sent the auctions to a German dealer (in Germany) and he said that they appeared to be good, but priced high to cash in on the hot market in coins from Poland.3Mark

TwoKopeiki

The reverse details on the Saxonian crest are too good to be a cast, in my opinion.

DCH

Disclaimer>>>I don't collect these so my opinion isn't worth anything

Things that bother me on Saxon piece: lack of detail in protected areas, sharp details on raised areas. Pitting to the right of the bust(could be a planchet flaw). Reeding on the rim really bothers me, but I'm not sure why. Overall 'look' of the coin screams fake to me. I would have expected it to receive a higher grade.

Poland: After another look, I think this is just the result of worn out, excessively reworked dies. I've seen so many chinese fakes, I automatically assume any coin that blundered is fake

I think I'll stick to offering opinions on things I actually know something about

Bailathacl

Nah, toss your opinions around, they're welcome!

laurentyvan

After another look, I think this is just the result of worn out, excessively reworked dies.

Good call, too often the die state is never considered as a reason for particularities in the strike. The cry of "counterfeit" is easy and unfortunately, too often true.

coinkat

I think the coin looks okay... I really am not sure about the price

lordmarcovan

<< <i>And what makes you say that it is a cast counterfeit? >>

'Cause it damn sure looks like one. Don't feel bad, DCH- I ain't buyin' these, either (literally or figuratively). I smell a rat.

Mind you, I am no specialist in these, either. But they look very hinky to me.

3Mark

<< <i>

<< <i>And what makes you say that it is a cast counterfeit? >>

'Cause it damn sure looks like one. Don't feel bad, DCH- I ain't buyin' these, either (literally or figuratively). I smell a rat.

Mind you, I am no specialist in these, either. But they look very hinky to me.

>>



If I was the seller (I don't know him/her and have never bought anything from the seller) and was a member here, I would be very unhappy that you just called me a liar and a conman or worse. You obviously can't read, since you omitted the part about the German dealer who is a "specialist" in thalers. Why make comments about something that you know nothing about (self confessed)?3Mark

TwoKopeiki

I always believed that you will find the answers to your own questions, only when you question the answers and opinions of others. I don't see a reason to get upset with DCH - he voiced his opinion and initiated a discussion. 3Mark, to err is human, to forgive is divine

3Mark

<< <i>I always believed that you will find the answers to your own questions, only when you question the answers and opinions of others. I don't see a reason to get upset with DCH - he voiced his opinion and initiated a discussion. 3Mark, to err is human, to forgive is divine >>



Roman:

I am not upset about DCH or LordM, but the casting of aspersions against individuals who have no chance to respond and have no basis in fact. The use of a platitude by you in no way will justify this. The reason that you will never see me reply to a question about ancient coins is that I know nothing about them and therefor add nothing.3Mark

1jester

Personally, I wouldn't be so adamantly confident that the coins aren't fake. They might be very well done counterfeits that even the most seasoned veteran would have a difficult time ascertaining with the coins in hand. That being said, I think the rim on the first one look suspect (maybe damage or ex-jewelry repair?). I believe the pitting on the obverse of the first one is haymarking. In general, I suspect that the very detailed photographs give us such a clear image of all the coins' faults that they look strange. I do believe the second Talar (it's Polish, after all.... ) has been chemically cleaned, and the first might have been as well. I would only take a chance on these if I had a long-term relationship with the dealer and enjoyed the privelege of money back if not satisfied.



edit: In my opinion, DCH is a gentleman and extremely knowledgeable numismatist of the finest caliber. I find it a rare honor and pleasure to have him visit the Darkside.

Preussen

<< <i>Personally, I wouldn't be so adamantly confident that the coins aren't fake. They might be very well done counterfeits that even the most seasoned veteran would have a difficult time ascertaining with the coins in hand... >>

That very general assessment could be equally applied to each and every coin you've ever seen. This whole thing was started by someone who admittedly knows nothing about such coins saying these two are fake "Cast counterfeit, and not a very good one; this one is worse". Why make such unsubstantiated comments? A much less accusatory way to start a dialog might have been to ask "Do these coins look right to knowledgeable collectors of coins of the period?" rather than stating emphatically that they are poor fakes. ...JMO.

Maybe the coins are fake (maybe your PCGS or NGC certified coin is fake), but there is nothing in the auction pics that suggest it IMO. I have plenty of early coins that appear crude by today’s standards, but that doesn’t mean they’re fakes. If someone made such baseless statements about coins I’m offering, I’d be plenty pi$$ed. -Preussen

TwoKopeiki

<< <i>A much less accusatory way to start a dialog might have been to ask "Do these coins look right to knowledgeable collectors of coins of the period?" >>



Agreed.

Doogy

i hate to spoil this party with the truth, but here goes......

every one of you.....no exceptions...........every coin that you have shown to us out of your collection in the past three months are cast counterfeits, whether slabbed or not. I'll do you all a favor by disposing of them for you. Call it "being helpful" to my fellow numismatists; i just want to extend a hand to brothers in need.

Doug

BTW, you'll have to cover shipping on each of your sides; i can't bear the expense of all the coins that will be flooding in

DCH

My apologies for turning this thread into such a mess. I fired off a quick opinion without offering a disclaimer or justification. My initial post should have included a disclaimer stating my qualifications(or lack of) to offer an opinion on the coins in question. I also should also have presented the reasons for my conclusion.

3Mark simply asked the question I should have answered in my initial post.

Thanks to those who came to my defense, even though I probably deserve a mild beating for such an uninformed and useless post

ajaan

<< <i> even though I probably deserve a mild beating for such an uninformed and useless post >>


If we did that to everyone then aethelred would be constantly beated for all his uninformed and useless posts; which amount to about 95% of his posts.

3Mark

<< <i>My apologies for turning this thread into such a mess. I fired off a quick opinion without offering a disclaimer or justification. My initial post should have included a disclaimer stating my qualifications(or lack of) to offer an opinion on the coins in question. I also should also have presented the reasons for my conclusion.

3Mark simply asked the question I should have answered in my initial post.

Thanks to those who came to my defense, even though I probably deserve a mild beating for such an uninformed and useless post >>



Apology accepted. If you go to coinarchives.com and search for the Saxony thaler, you will find at least 3 of this date and they all have similar characteristics to the one on ebay and the same with the Poland Thorn thaler. As an aside, I found the price on ebay (which I had thought high) is not out of line compared to the auction prices realized and I also thought the grade for the Saxony thaler of EF-40 was a little low.3Mark

worldcoinguy

All - I never intended the conversation to derail like this, but I do believe that threads like this actually serve an educational purpose to hear different opinions and more critically WHY. We all have to learn somewhere. Thanks for the comments.
Brent

FlyingEagle

<< <i>

<< <i>Personally, I wouldn't be so adamantly confident that the coins aren't fake. They might be very well done counterfeits that even the most seasoned veteran would have a difficult time ascertaining with the coins in hand... >>

That very general assessment could be equally applied to each and every coin you've ever seen. This whole thing was started by someone who admittedly knows nothing about such coins saying these two are fake "Cast counterfeit, and not a very good one; this one is worse". Why make such unsubstantiated comments? A much less accusatory way to start a dialog might have been to ask "Do these coins look right to knowledgeable collectors of coins of the period?" rather than stating emphatically that they are poor fakes. ...JMO.

Maybe the coins are fake (maybe your PCGS or NGC certified coin is fake), but there is nothing in the auction pics that suggest it IMO. I have plenty of early coins that appear crude by today’s standards, but that doesn’t mean they’re fakes. If someone made such baseless statements about coins I’m offering, I’d be plenty pi$$ed. -Preussen >>

lordmarcovan

OK, maybe I was harsh.

I did give an honest opinion (and fully admit that it isn't an expert opinion in this case). The coin looked suspicious to me.

Maybe I'm wrong to think so. It wouldn't be the first time. Certainly won't be the last.

Live and learn!