Earliest darkside proofs?
worldcoinguy
Posts: 3,019 ✭✭✭✭
I was just flipping through an auction catalog, and I noticed a 1656 proof crown from Great Britian. I was unaware of proofs being minted until the middle of the 1700s. Does anybody know where and approximately when the first proof coins were minted? When did the term "proof coin" become commonly used to describe this specialized method of minting?
Brent
Brent
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Good question- I don't know. The earliest I've personally seen (a picture of, anyway), was a 1773 guinea. Mindblowing. Oldest I've owned was an 1805 Irish penny.
Surely they had the technology to produce proof or prooflike coins as far back as the Renaissance?
Which also begs the question... are proof hammered coins possible, or does one need screw presses and such to produce the proper pressure? 'Cause if proofs only exist in milled coinage, then they don't predate the mid 1500s.
<< <i>1656- wow.
Good question- I don't know. The earliest I've personally seen (a picture of, anyway), was a 1773 guinea. Mindblowing. Oldest I've owned was an 1805 Irish penny.
Surely they had the technology to produce proof or prooflike coins as far back as the Renaissance?
Which also begs the question... are proof hammered coins possible, or does one need screw presses and such to produce the proper pressure? 'Cause if proofs only exist in milled coinage, then they don't predate the mid 1500s. >>
your holeyness,
if i recall, that Irish penny you owned was gilt? that thing is stunning, and i never get tired of seeing it!
<< <i>if i recall, that Irish penny you owned was gilt? that thing is stunning, and i never get tired of seeing it! >>
Yes. Gilt copper proof, NGC PR64 UCAM, as I recall. I never get tired of showing it off. The picture actually falls short of how breathtaking this thing was. I do regret selling it. I think it is safe to say it was the nicest coin I have ever owned.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I was just flipping through an auction catalog, and I noticed a 1656 proof crown from Great Britian. I was unaware of proofs being minted until the middle of the 1700s. Does anybody know where and approximately when the first proof coins were minted? When did the term "proof coin" become commonly used to describe this specialized method of minting?
Brent >>
That is generally accepted as the first Proof coin. There were others struck intermittently in the years following but they were not commonly struck until the 1700's.
I think it's about time we define "proof" before going any farther with this.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i> My mistake, I do believe the first Proof was the 1651 half crown.
I think it's about time we define "proof" before going any farther with this. >>
Andy:
I will go with a polished planchet and a polished die coin. I have been working on the earliest known German proofs and so far I have found the earliest German proof coin that I know of is a 1813 Hannover 2/3rd's thaler that is classified as a pattern. It was actually struck in England for Hannover since George III was also the King of Hannover. I've been told that the earliest known German proofs were medals struck during the middle of the 18th century and are of Bavarian orgin. As far as I can tell, no one that I know has any idea when the first German proof (as we know a proof) coin was struck and what it is. I will keep asking and hopefully someone can add something to this.3Mark
<< <i> My mistake, I do believe the first Proof was the 1651 half crown.
I think it's about time we define "proof" before going any farther with this. >>
Fair enough - a coin struck on a specially prepared planchet using specially prepared dies and struck more than once. Breen lists these as the earliest known Proofs.
Personally, I believe its all about die preparation and number of strikes. Not entirely relevant but having seen modern proof silver coins struck, the planchets were milky white, it was the dies that exerted the final finish, number of strikes and pressures used also came into play.
Have an 1807 Proof here somewhere will try to find pics
By this definition, the 'Fine Work' 1662 crown pieces , or Thomas Simon's 'Petition' Crown would count as 'Proofs' although clearly these do not have the mirrored surfaces we now recognise.
I think the first actual listing of a proof in Spink's Coins of England is the 1664 Crown and In Coincraft there is Cromwell halfcrown listed as being struck in gold and as a proof but I have'nt seen pictures of it so i don't know if it has mirrored fields or how many where struck.
From the basic derivation a proof coin is produced to 'prove' the dies and the press - i.e to test the process. By this basis proofs have been produced for as long as coins have been made. Clearly the coin made in this proving process doesn't need to be the same metal as the final product or even had the same characteristics such as edge type, where relevant, or weight. But often it is - and usually one would expect it to be made with much more care than the subsequent volume production.
It gets into a murky area when we begin to consider whether a die trial is a proof or not. Clearly an unfinished die trial isn't by this measure, but the difference between a trial of a finished die pair and a proof is pretty subtle.
There are medieval coins known that are so clearly superior to the normal strike for their issue and often on an overweight flan that it is clear that they must have been made either as a presentation piece or as a trial piece of some type. Usually referred to as 'specimen strikings' they really do match the later proofs in concept.
Somewhere along the line - and I am loath to suggest the first example but Cromwell pieces are a candidate (by the way, weren't they 1658 not 6?) - there begin to emerge proof coins which are also differentiated by being struck from a die which has been specially prepared for the 'proof' run rather than proof strikings being made from early use (first strikings) of regular dies.
Then the whole thing begins to get a bit murky and by the middle of the 18th century there is a clear production of occasional pieces with specially prepared dies and sometimes off-metal which are clearly designed for presentation and to serve as examples of the 'best' state of the design/engraving.
In my series (Irish) these go back to 1680 - one interesting example I have in my collection, though somewhat later, is the 1736 halfpenny - where I have examples of the currency striking, the proof striking in copper (right metal) and in silver (off-metal) - which makes a nice comparison set.
Links to my pages for these three :
Copper proof
Silver proof
Normal striking - copper
It's not very clear on the scan, but the copper proof has quite glossy fields and slightly frosted devices so it does fit into the 'modern' proof category.
Sorry the silver one is a little polished - I'll try to do better next time ! - as compensation here is the companion farthing in silver in somewhat better grade:
1737 silver proof
And interestingly with matte fields.
John.
Specialist in Irish Numismatics
http://www.irishcoinage.com/
You joined 2003, posts 1 !
Most of my Irish friends are a little more loquacious!
Top site by the way, I collect Brit. farthings and contemporary
G II, GIII counterfeits. Your site is one of 2 or 3 where I
trust the content 100%. Very rare.
I have the Brit. 1730 farthing 'set', CU, CU proof and AG proof.
About as good as it gets.
Good to see you here.
Teg