Anyone see the eBay thread of the liteside?

ajaan

This thread. If true, it is going to piss off a lot of Canadian sellers who can't put a numerical grade in the title of their ICCS coins.

TwoKopeiki

I wonder if these rules will be based on the country, for example www.ebay.ca would allow ICCS? Because if not - that's really bull crap. I have a lot of respect for ICCS grading.

Blackhawk

I don't like the idea of Ebay busting on legitimate grading companies. Besides the Canadian graders, if this is true they also have targeted PCI and SEGS, both of which are/have been legitimate grading companies. I can see some merit in trying to control self slabbed coins, but if the coins are graded and encapsulated by an actual business, then I believe that it's up to the buyer to educate him/herself on the accuracy of said companies grading and use judgement in their coin purchases.

What if Ebay did the same for autos? They could pick out the top three companies based on consumer complaints and only allow those brands to be sold. All the rest would be excluded from the web site because some former owners didn't do their homework before buying their cars and are now unhappy with them.

Ebay should not be selling unlabeled fakes or grossly misrepresented coins, but I believe that there is some responsibility to be carried by collectors as far as making informed online purchases.

Aethelred

I may be in the minority, but I think this is a step in the right direction. Too many uneducated collectors have been ripped-off with slabs that don't have any respect in the market.

MacCrimmon

Caveat emptor; Caveat venditor...................

Preussen

<< <i>I may be in the minority, but I think this is a step in the right direction. Too many uneducated collectors have been ripped-off with slabs that don't have any respect in the market. >>

I must respectfully disagree. I personally feel that anyone who spends money on coins (or anything else, for that matter) without first gaining the necessary knowledge has no one to blame but themselves. Anyone who is dumb enough to buy an "XYZ Certified MS67 - PCGS Trends $9,999" for $295 deserves exactly what he gets. People must start taking responsibility for their own actions and stop blaming others for their mistakes. We need personal responsibility, not more regulations governing our lives to “protect” us from ourselves. JMO . -Preussen

ajaan

I kind of agree with Preussen. When is the buyer going to take responsibility. Also, if these eBay rules are true, it still doesn't prevent someone from listing coins from lesser known graders, they just can't place a numerical grade in the title. I do realize there is a problem with some of these 'grading' companies but I don't know if this is the solution. I agree with Andy, perhaps education is the key.

ajaan

Another thought, I wonder is this will apply to coins listed from eBay.ca? If it does, ICCS will be royally pissed.

spoon

Well, this excludes legitimate companies like ICCS to the advantage of Chinese counterfeiters. Good job, ebay!

That is a really lazy way out. In sense, I do agree with filtering for only legitimate/vetted companies.* But in a sales arena as vast as eBay, it seems their aim isn't accomplished merely through this. What they need to get better at if they wish to boost the confidence of those who use the site is actually following up on reports of violations more quickly and possibly taking more severe actions with habitual offenders. It's all Web 2.0, baby! They need a community system for reporting rules violations. Appoint trusted moderators to those areas who can more quickly pick up the reports of abuse and pass them up to higher for action.


* I agree with the filter for a different purpose. When I was trying database prices realized for certain coins, I had a system of crunching the numbers by grade. TPG coins are handled different than raw. But a crap coin from ACG or whoever would inevitably get in and skew the statistics. Filtering the punks out was a good thing.

LouisCamp

Did eBay say the slab has to be genuine?


LOL


Lou

Bmarkers

They could pick out the top three companies based on consumer complaints and only allow those brands to be sold. All the rest would be excluded from the web site because some former owners didn't do their homework before buying their cars and are now unhappy with them.

ebay doesn't say, you can't sell the coin/slab (or car as in your example). We're just saying you can't list it as a certified coin, with a certified grade in the title.

Ebay should not be selling unlabeled fakes or grossly misrepresented coins

ebay is not selling these things. People are, and we're trying to stop it. ebay has rules about selling fakes/reproductions. As for the misrepresented items...That's what feedback is for.

CIVITAS

Well, that is unfortunate. I'm sure if enough stink is raised, at least ICCS will be added to the list of approved services. eBay can decide whatever they want to allow or not allow and I don't have any problem with that. It is kind of a pain now that you have to photograph the whole slab too, as well as specify attributes (it appears that once again I'll be dissecting the Turbo Lister data files to work with my database). But remember, it's still eBay, and they don't do ANYTHING, unless there's something in it for them so don't be too surprised to see a targeted fee increase sometime down the road for certified coins to make up for revenues lost because junk slabs will probably get listed less and less as time goes by.

coinpictures

After reading the updated official policy over on the Lightside, this new policy is more focked than I thought.

Selling raw U.S. coins? Can no longer reference Greysheet, Redbook, or trends pricing even in the description.

Selling raw World coins? Can no longer reference Krause, Charlton, or Spink pricing even in the description.

Considering that the vast majority of world coins are sold raw as opposed to certified, this is potentially a big deal to a lot of people.

Blackhawk

Ebay might have rules regarding the selling of fakes on its site, but they would be well advised to hire someone who knows a bit about coins to look at all auction listings as they come out and cull the obvious fake crap and scams out of the herd. If you wanted to go through there and weed out all the blatantly obvious fakes, you'd never have time to buy anything.

wybrit

The rules against quoting catalogue values are laughable. Major coin auction houses and top dealers will continue to quote these figures in their domains and rightfully should do so. I suppose ebay is trying to shut down scammers who use catalogue values to overstate their coins' worths. Big deal - that's one of the "trivial many" problems in the coin selling area.

The point by Preussen is well taken. While elimination of trash slabs is certainly a desirable outcome, the rule-makers have no idea where the cut-off point between legitimate TPGs and trash slabbers is.

It should be interesting to see if any legal action is brought against ebay.

MSD61

<< <i>

<< <i>I may be in the minority, but I think this is a step in the right direction. Too many uneducated collectors have been ripped-off with slabs that don't have any respect in the market. >>

I must respectfully disagree. I personally feel that anyone who spends money on coins (or anything else, for that matter) without first gaining the necessary knowledge has no one to blame but themselves. Anyone who is dumb enough to buy an "XYZ Certified MS67 - PCGS Trends $9,999" for $295 deserves exactly what he gets. People must start taking responsibility for their own actions and stop blaming others for their mistakes. We need personal responsibility, not more regulations governing our lives to “protect” us from ourselves. JMO . -Preussen >>



Well said! Bravo!!

Keleum

I've said this on lite-side. Who is this really protecting? It's protecting PCGS and NGC from getting their brand/service diluted.

Was it really an issue that SGS "slabbed" coins were getting raw prices anyways? Were the only counterfeits in "fake" slabs. What is the problem that I (joe coincollector) am having that this solves?

coinkat

In all seriousness, this should be fixed with a phone call. ICCS needs to be included as a viable and respected grading service... even Ebay can figure that much out

RareBronzeCollector

<< <i>In all seriousness, this should be fixed with a phone call. ICCS needs to be included as a viable and respected grading service... even Ebay can figure that much out >>







I agree with you on that point..... I raised that very issue on the liteside the other day......
I also questioned the omissionof CGS (the new British service with the 100 point system)..... so far they have compared favorably as well as being knowledgeable with GB coinage..... something the domestic TPG's are not.....

ajaan

Perhaps a solution to all of this is to have the new rules apply to only coins listed in US coins.

Aethelred

<< <i>

<< <i>I may be in the minority, but I think this is a step in the right direction. Too many uneducated collectors have been ripped-off with slabs that don't have any respect in the market. >>

I must respectfully disagree. I personally feel that anyone who spends money on coins (or anything else, for that matter) without first gaining the necessary knowledge has no one to blame but themselves. Anyone who is dumb enough to buy an "XYZ Certified MS67 - PCGS Trends $9,999" for $295 deserves exactly what he gets. People must start taking responsibility for their own actions and stop blaming others for their mistakes. We need personal responsibility, not more regulations governing our lives to “protect” us from ourselves. JMO . -Preussen >>



I understand and to an extent agree with what you are saying. I believe buyers need to educate themselves or risk being taken advantage of by sellers who lack ethics.

However, an uneducated buyer does not excuse an unethical seller. At some point I believe the party who owns the medium where unethical sales are taking place (in this case eBay) has a moral obligation to step in and attempt to correct the situation.

I also believe that if strong steps are not taken to combat the fraud we see taking place on eBay, those of us who buy coins for resale at fair market value will find ourselves in a situation where we are unable to conduct business. If the general public begins to see eBay as a place where coins are altered, fake, overgraded, et cetera, it is natural that they will either not bid at all or worse yet bid at discounted rates. People must have faith in eBay for it to work as it has for the last decade.

I do believe that parts of the new policy are misguided, but I am glad to see eBay do something. I hope that thses new rules will be fine-tuned as time goes by, but I still see this as a step in the right direction.

Having said all of that, I respect and value the opinions of those here who do not agree with me.

coinpictures

What's getting me grumpy(er) now is the thought of having to reimage 50 or so coins by October 1 due to Ebay's new requirement that all auctions for certified coins must show full shots of both the front and back of the slab in its entirety. My normal photo composition of a tight closeup of the front and back along with the slab label pasted in is no longer acceptable.

I think I'll just say "Fsck it!", keep my original images, throw the slabs on a flatbed scanner, and add quickie images to obey the new letter of the law... if people want to see the actual quality of the coin, they still have my original pics.

I still have issues with eBay setting the precedent that the Sheldon grading scale is now solely the purview of slabbing companies, when in fact it is an industry-wide adopted grading scale (since you are no longer permitted to put a numerical grade in the title of a raw coin). That just rubs me wrong.

Over on the lightside there are some other scenarios that don't lend themselves well to this new policy, such as dutch auctions for modern slabs, or relisting of common modern slabbed material: instead of doing a simple relist and/or using a stock photo, you now have to photograph each new coin individually, as well as type in the cert number, etc. It's going to be a big time burner for some folks...

ajaan

RE: the ICCS issue. The new eBay policy applies only to eBay.com If you list on eBay.ca then ICCS and the grade can be listed in the title.

Aethelred

Got my new 21 Sept. Graysheet and even they have a paragraph about the new eBay policy!

wybrit

Anyone have the link to this policy? I have yet to see it officially posted on ebay.

coinpictures

Linky

Expand the "Some Examples" section...

Edit: Holy sh1t! I just reread the policy and now they've gone too far!

"A raw or uncertified coin is defined as any coin not graded by one of the authorized grading companies. Sellers are permitted to list these items on eBay under the following conditions:

* A numeric grade is not included in the title of the listing, such as MS-65, VF-25, etc. A numeric grade may only be included in the description of the listing.
* The grading company or price guide is not referenced in the title or description.
* A dollar value (even if personal opinion) is not included in the title or description."

(bold added).

The way I read it, if you are wanting to sell a slabbed coin by any company other than the authorized companies, you may not even mention the name of the grading company in the description!

They've effectively eliminated the sale of all PCI, SEGS, and ICCS coins on eBay.

Blackhawk

They had to do something...the speculators who don't give a hoot about collecting were losing money because they didn't take the time to educate themselves about what they were buying.