It makes you wonder what would have happened if Vick had come clean, admitted his involvement and/or cooperated with the U.S. Attorneys from the outset. Perhaps a $250,000.00 fine (but certainly less than the $100+ million he lost), 2-5 five years probation and perhaps most importantly (to him), the ability to continue his NFL career (maybe less a one year suspension). It's all speculation. But could it have been any worse than what he is facing now?
Valid points, Jack, but dirtbags like Vick will never own up to being the punk they are until it's far too late in the game.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Three things keep me on the "up and up." It's it passes all three, I'm good to go.
1. Answering to mom. 2. Answering to my fiancee. 3. Will it risk me getting reprimanded, suspended, disbarred?
Nifong? I suppose his action could conceivably pass test 1 and 2. But obviously not test 3. Maybe he's set for life financially. But can you imagine putting on a job application that you were disbarred? That just screams of a lack of ethics. Perhaps a former/present member of the military can comment, but I'd equate it to being dishonorably discharged.
Certainly not an authority, but Wikipedia defines dishonorable discharge as follows:
Dishonorable
Dishonorable discharges are handed down for what the military considers the most dishonorable of conduct. This type of discharge may be rendered only by conviction at a general court-martial for offenses such as desertion, rape, or murder, calling for dishonorable discharge as part of the sentence.
With this characterization of service, all veterans' benefits are lost, regardless of past honorable service. This type of discharge used to carry a heavy stigma, having made the obtainment of gainful post-service employment extremely difficult.
As I read it, does that mean Section 8 discharges no longer exist?
Interesting read on Pappy Boyington. He was dishonorably discharged in spring 1942. But then somehow "wranged a major's commission" in the Marines and went on to receive the Medal of Honor.
For the longest time, I thought it would be cool to own a Medal of Honor. Always looked for one on ebay. But never saw one for sale. Then I realize why. It is a crime to sell the Medal of Honor.
yeah sounds like they got rid of it jack,klinger never got his either lol-i never knew pappy was dishonarably discharge and got back in lol-i havnt looked at my medal of honor autos in a while, not sure if i have him or not,think only one woman has ever gotten it,interesting read-ive seen fake mohs on ebay but they always get pulled, i know a guy that has several of each branch of svs,they are all a little different,you can get anything faked in india/pakistan/taiwan,and china anymore, and they do great work lol-dont matter what you are faking,they can make it and make it real,especially metal stuff!ive seen em at military shows before,real ones, not the fakes lol-big bucks-remember after 9-11 the old guy in california was a moh recipient and was trying to board a plane to get somewhere and they tried to take his moh away from him?they didnt get it,most people dont even know what the hell one is, he told em youll get it when you pry it from my cold dead body,otherwise its coming with me, carried it since ww2 or korea everywhere!! randy
This gets all the more interesting. A quick Google search identified one Joe Foss. He is the individual you referenced about the MOH and airport security. Below is the story from Snopes.Com. But it gets better. Below is a link to Joe Foss' page on Wikipedia.
1. A MOH Recipient 2. Brigadier General 3. Governor of South Dakota 4. Commissioner of the American Football League - Gotta Love The Sports Reference 5. President of the National Rifle Association
Claim: The Medal of Honor carried by a World War II hero aroused suspicion among airport security forces.
Status: True.
Example: [Collected on the Internet, 2002]
"They just kept passing it around there were eight or nine or ten of them who handled it before it was over," he said.
"They had found it in my pocket at the airport, and they thought it was suspicious. It's shaped like a star, and they were looking at the metal edges of it, like it was a weapon. I asked for it back, but they kept handing it to each other and inspecting it. I was told to move to a separate area.
"I told them — just turn it over. The engraving on the back explains everything. But they thought they must have something potentially dangerous here.
"I told them exactly what it was — I said, 'That's my Congressional Medal of Honor.´"
The man relating that story was retired Gen. Joe Foss, 86. His experience last month in Arizona at the international airport in Phoenix — may be the ultimate symbol of the out-of-kilter times we are going through. We are so afraid of terrorists in our midst that what happened to Foss is not only believable, but perhaps even inevitable:
The Congressional Medal of Honor will be taken from its recipient because it looks vaguely ominous.
I spoke with Foss because I wanted to hear it from him directly. He told me that he holds no animosity about the incident — "I'm just as interested in defeating the terrorists as anyone is, I promise you that" and that he is mostly sad that no one knew what the Medal of Honor was.
Foss was awarded the medal by President Franklin D. Roosevelt during World War II after shooting down 26 enemy planes as a Marine fighter pilot in solo combat in the Pacific. He grew up in South Dakota — after the war he would become governor of that state — and took flying lessons as a young man, then went to war.
He lives in Scottsdale, Ariz., and when he travels he is patted down in airports instead of going through the metal detectors, because of a heart pacemaker. At the airport in Phoenix, he said, he was being searched manually and he put his jacket through the X-ray machine. A couple of things caught the attention of the screeners — rightly so.
Foss has a key chain made out of a dummy bullet, with a hole drilled through it to make it evident it is harmless; he also carries a small knife/file with the Medal of Honor Society's insignia on it. The screeners took both of them from Foss — traveling during these nervous days with items that look like bullets, or with even a small knife, will, and should, invite scrutiny. Even if you're 86. Even if you're a war hero.
That's not what frustrated him. The screeners, he said, allowed him to mail the key chain and the little knife back to his home from the airport. But for 45 minutes, he estimated, he was passed from person to person, made to remove his boots and tie and belt and hat three different times, and prevented from boarding his flight (he was eventually allowed on) because the security personnel, he said, had misgivings about his Medal of Honor.
(America West Airlines, in whose terminal in Phoenix the incident allegedly took place, said through a spokeswoman shortly after the misunderstanding that the airline's objective is to ensure safety and security for all passengers and employees.)
"I want you to know," Foss told me, "that I don't go around wearing my Medal of Honor, or carrying it with me. The only reason I had it with me on this flight was that I was supposed to give a speech to a class at the United States Military Academy at West Point, and I thought the medal was something the cadets might be interested in seeing."
I asked him what he remembered about being presented the Congressional Medal of Honor. "I was right fresh out of combat when I was called to the White House," he said. "FDR was behind his desk, and he pinned the medal on my uniform. He said it was for actions above and beyond the call of duty.
"I was nervous, being in the presence of the president. I think I may have been more nervous there than I was in combat. My wife and mother were with me — it was quite a day. I think President Roosevelt called me 'young feller.'"
After the White House ceremony, Foss had his photograph taken with the medal — the nation's highest military honor for valor in action — on his uniform. That photo was the full front cover of Life magazine, the issue of June 7, 1943; the cover caption was: "Captain Foss, U.S.M.C. America's No. 1 Ace."
And now, almost 60 years later, the Medal of Honor was being handed from one skeptical security screener to another in the Phoenix airport, while Foss, at 86, took his boots and belt off as ordered.
"I wasn't upset for me," he said. "I was upset for the Medal of Honor, that they just didn't know what it even was. It represents all of the guys who lost their lives — the guys who never came back. Everyone who put their lives on the line for their country. You're supposed to know what the Medal of Honor is."
Origins: On 11 January 2002, Medal of Honor Joseph J. Foss of Scottsdale, Arizona — a major in the USMC during World War II, a colonel in the USAF during the Korean War, and later a brigadier general with the South Dakota Air National Guard — was attempting to board an America West flight bound for Arlington, Virginia, when airport security held him for 45 minutes while they debated what to do with a variety of suspect items he had about his person. This 86-year-old former governor of South Dakota was on his way to attend a National Rifle Association meeting and to speak to cadets at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, and he carried with him his Medal of Honor, as well as a Medal of Honor commemorative nail file and a dummy bullet which had been made into a key fob.
Each of these items was regarded as a potential security risk by airport personnel: the bullet for being a bullet, the nail file for being a nail file (metal nail files are now banned on flights in the USA), and the Medal of Honor for being a suspicious five-pointed metal object that might have been a weapon (similar to the Japanese throwing discs known hira shuriken).
After being repeatedly searched, Foss was allowed to board the plane with his Medal of Honor, but he had to mail the bullet and nail file home to himself. Foss' experience prompted the piece quoted above, which is the text of a Bob Greene article from the 24 February 2002 Chicago Tribune.
Several columnists have since used this incident as the centerpiece of newspaper articles about the issues surrounding heightened air travel standards since September 11 because it highlights the problems inherent to new airport security measures. Where does a reasonable standard of protection leave off and lunacy begin? Granted, if bullets are on the banned list then passengers shouldn't attempt to bring them onboard, but should bullets which have been drilled and turned into key charms — ornamental objects which clearly pose no threat to anyone — be treated as if they were "real" bullets? And should a Medal of Honor — the country's highest award for bravery — even fleetingly be considered a possible threat to the safety of others?
We shouldn't fault airport security officers for not recognizing a Medal of Honor on sight; not many people get to see one in their lives. But a closer examination by security personnel would have shown them what it was, and at that point in the proceedings they fell down on the job. Rather than treating an obviously cooperative passenger courteously and allowing him to explain what the suspect item was, they shuffled the general back and forth and required him to remove his boots, belt, hat, and tie — several times each. The delay they subjected him to almost caused him to miss his flight. That is no way to treat any 86-year-old man, let alone a war hero and former governor.
Had the situation been handled professionally, the general would have cleared the security checkpoint in all of five minutes, with most of that taken up by the manual search his pacemaker necessitated. Yes, his nail file and key-ring charm would have been taken from him because both these items are on the list of things one must not bring onto a plane. But the Medal of Honor should have been quickly vetted and returned to its owner, and its owner should have been treated respectfully throughout.
Then again, if this were a perfect world, nobody would have let me into it.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
more interesting than vick too lol-an 86 year old white guy with the medal of honor,and they're to stupid to read to notice it,they are all personall engraved,its not like he had a rag on his head or anything lol,-commisioner of the afl, i dont kow that!looks like he did a bit of everything!as for vick -hes dog meat,hey maybe theyll give him dog tags,he cant have mine, maybe they can make him some from licence plates or something!!!!
PasadenaMudSlide
Posts: 732
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randy
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Hey dude that's messed up and sick and should be taken off this board immediately along with you . chaz
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Hey dude that's messed up and sick and should be taken off this board immediately along with you . chaz >>
I agree. The picture is completely unrealistic! Clearly, Vick should be tied down to a rape stand.
/s/ JackWESQ
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
1. Answering to mom.
2. Answering to my fiancee.
3. Will it risk me getting reprimanded, suspended, disbarred?
Nifong? I suppose his action could conceivably pass test 1 and 2. But obviously not test 3. Maybe he's set for life financially. But can you imagine putting on a job application that you were disbarred? That just screams of a lack of ethics. Perhaps a former/present member of the military can comment, but I'd equate it to being dishonorably discharged.
/s/ JackWESQ
randy
Dishonorable
Dishonorable discharges are handed down for what the military considers the most dishonorable of conduct. This type of discharge may be rendered only by conviction at a general court-martial for offenses such as desertion, rape, or murder, calling for dishonorable discharge as part of the sentence.
With this characterization of service, all veterans' benefits are lost, regardless of past honorable service. This type of discharge used to carry a heavy stigma, having made the obtainment of gainful post-service employment extremely difficult.
Military Discharge
Now that sounds pretty bad.
As for a Section 8 discharge, interesting reading over at Wikipedia.
Section 8 Discharge
As I read it, does that mean Section 8 discharges no longer exist?
Interesting read on Pappy Boyington. He was dishonorably discharged in spring 1942. But then somehow "wranged a major's commission" in the Marines and went on to receive the Medal of Honor.
Pappy Boyington
For the longest time, I thought it would be cool to own a Medal of Honor. Always looked for one on ebay. But never saw one for sale. Then I realize why. It is a crime to sell the Medal of Honor.
18 U.S.C. Section 704
Gee, you think I have an interest in the military?
/s/ JackWESQ
randy
This gets all the more interesting. A quick Google search identified one Joe Foss. He is the individual you referenced about the MOH and airport security. Below is the story from Snopes.Com. But it gets better. Below is a link to Joe Foss' page on Wikipedia.
Joe Foss At Wikipedia
Apparently, Mr. Foss was:
1. A MOH Recipient
2. Brigadier General
3. Governor of South Dakota
4. Commissioner of the American Football League - Gotta Love The Sports Reference
5. President of the National Rifle Association
Not a bad life.
/s/ JackWESQ
MOH Recipient Given Hard Time At Airport
Medal Detector
Claim: The Medal of Honor carried by a World War II hero aroused suspicion among airport security forces.
Status: True.
Example: [Collected on the Internet, 2002]
"They just kept passing it around there were eight or nine or ten of them who handled it before it was over," he said.
"They had found it in my pocket at the airport, and they thought it was suspicious. It's shaped like a star, and they were looking at the metal edges of it, like it was a weapon. I asked for it back, but they kept handing it to each other and inspecting it. I was told to move to a separate area.
"I told them — just turn it over. The engraving on the back explains everything. But they thought they must have something potentially dangerous here.
"I told them exactly what it was — I said, 'That's my Congressional Medal of Honor.´"
The man relating that story was retired Gen. Joe Foss, 86. His experience last month in Arizona at the international airport in Phoenix — may be the ultimate symbol of the out-of-kilter times we are going through. We are so afraid of terrorists in our midst that what happened to Foss is not only believable, but perhaps even inevitable:
The Congressional Medal of Honor will be taken from its recipient because it looks vaguely ominous.
I spoke with Foss because I wanted to hear it from him directly. He told me that he holds no animosity about the incident — "I'm just as interested in defeating the terrorists as anyone is, I promise you that" and that he is mostly sad that no one knew what the Medal of Honor was.
Foss was awarded the medal by President Franklin D. Roosevelt during World War II after shooting down 26 enemy planes as a Marine fighter pilot in solo combat in the Pacific. He grew up in South Dakota — after the war he would become governor of that state — and took flying lessons as a young man, then went to war.
He lives in Scottsdale, Ariz., and when he travels he is patted down in airports instead of going through the metal detectors, because of a heart pacemaker. At the airport in Phoenix, he said, he was being searched manually and he put his jacket through the X-ray machine. A couple of things caught the attention of the screeners — rightly so.
Foss has a key chain made out of a dummy bullet, with a hole drilled through it to make it evident it is harmless; he also carries a small knife/file with the Medal of Honor Society's insignia on it. The screeners took both of them from Foss — traveling during these nervous days with items that look like bullets, or with even a small knife, will, and should, invite scrutiny. Even if you're 86. Even if you're a war hero.
That's not what frustrated him. The screeners, he said, allowed him to mail the key chain and the little knife back to his home from the airport. But for 45 minutes, he estimated, he was passed from person to person, made to remove his boots and tie and belt and hat three different times, and prevented from boarding his flight (he was eventually allowed on) because the security personnel, he said, had misgivings about his Medal of Honor.
(America West Airlines, in whose terminal in Phoenix the incident allegedly took place, said through a spokeswoman shortly after the misunderstanding that the airline's objective is to ensure safety and security for all passengers and employees.)
"I want you to know," Foss told me, "that I don't go around wearing my Medal of Honor, or carrying it with me. The only reason I had it with me on this flight was that I was supposed to give a speech to a class at the United States Military Academy at West Point, and I thought the medal was something the cadets might be interested in seeing."
I asked him what he remembered about being presented the Congressional Medal of Honor. "I was right fresh out of combat when I was called to the White House," he said. "FDR was behind his desk, and he pinned the medal on my uniform. He said it was for actions above and beyond the call of duty.
"I was nervous, being in the presence of the president. I think I may have been more nervous there than I was in combat. My wife and mother were with me — it was quite a day. I think President Roosevelt called me 'young feller.'"
After the White House ceremony, Foss had his photograph taken with the medal — the nation's highest military honor for valor in action — on his uniform. That photo was the full front cover of Life magazine, the issue of June 7, 1943; the cover caption was: "Captain Foss, U.S.M.C. America's No. 1 Ace."
And now, almost 60 years later, the Medal of Honor was being handed from one skeptical security screener to another in the Phoenix airport, while Foss, at 86, took his boots and belt off as ordered.
"I wasn't upset for me," he said. "I was upset for the Medal of Honor, that they just didn't know what it even was. It represents all of the guys who lost their lives — the guys who never came back. Everyone who put their lives on the line for their country. You're supposed to know what the Medal of Honor is."
Origins: On 11 January 2002, Medal of Honor Joseph J. Foss of Scottsdale, Arizona — a major in the USMC during World War II, a colonel in the USAF during the Korean War, and later a brigadier general with the South Dakota Air National Guard — was attempting to board an America West flight bound for Arlington, Virginia, when airport security held him for 45 minutes while they debated what to do with a variety of suspect items he had about his person. This 86-year-old former governor of South Dakota was on his way to attend a National Rifle Association meeting and to speak to cadets at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, and he carried with him his Medal of Honor, as well as a Medal of Honor commemorative nail file and a dummy bullet which had been made into a key fob.
Each of these items was regarded as a potential security risk by airport personnel: the bullet for being a bullet, the nail file for being a nail file (metal nail files are now banned on flights in the USA), and the Medal of Honor for being a suspicious five-pointed metal object that might have been a weapon (similar to the Japanese throwing discs known hira shuriken).
After being repeatedly searched, Foss was allowed to board the plane with his Medal of Honor, but he had to mail the bullet and nail file home to himself. Foss' experience prompted the piece quoted above, which is the text of a Bob Greene article from the 24 February 2002 Chicago Tribune.
Several columnists have since used this incident as the centerpiece of newspaper articles about the issues surrounding heightened air travel standards since September 11 because it highlights the problems inherent to new airport security measures. Where does a reasonable standard of protection leave off and lunacy begin? Granted, if bullets are on
the banned list then passengers shouldn't attempt to bring them onboard, but should bullets which have been drilled and turned into key charms — ornamental objects which clearly pose no threat to anyone — be treated as if they were "real" bullets? And should a Medal of Honor — the country's highest award for bravery — even fleetingly be considered a possible threat to the safety of others?
We shouldn't fault airport security officers for not recognizing a Medal of Honor on sight; not many people get to see one in their lives. But a closer examination by security personnel would have shown them what it was, and at that point in the proceedings they fell down on the job. Rather than treating an obviously cooperative passenger courteously and allowing him to explain what the suspect item was, they shuffled the general back and forth and required him to remove his boots, belt, hat, and tie — several times each. The delay they subjected him to almost caused him to miss his flight. That is no way to treat any 86-year-old man, let alone a war hero and former governor.
Had the situation been handled professionally, the general would have cleared the security checkpoint in all of five minutes, with most of that taken up by the manual search his pacemaker necessitated. Yes, his nail file and key-ring charm would have been taken from him because both these items are on the list of things one must not bring onto a plane. But the Medal of Honor should have been quickly vetted and returned to its owner, and its owner should have been treated respectfully throughout.
Then again, if this were a perfect world, nobody would have let me into it.
Barbara "perfect alibi" Mikkelson
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
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heh heh, now that's funny!