QUESTION: Is there anything to prevent a shady dealer from saying he was robbed after a show when he

TheLiberator

I am pretty ignorant when it comes to insurance and the like. Can't someone just say "Crap! I got robbed after the show and ALL my coins were stolen!" when nothing really happened at all? They could call the cops, file a report, hide their real inventory etc.

This seems like a REALLY easy way to defraud the insurance company but I am probably oversimplifying things.

What do you think?

Cladiator

prison

ScarsdaleCoin

it would be the same as any one, a collector doing the same thing....sure some have...however most people are not dishonest

robertpr

<< <i>prison >>



Exactly. Don't forget that beyond being fraudulant, filing a false police report is a crime in itself as well.

TheLiberator

Well I know that thankfully most people are not that dishonest but I guess when I heard about all those robberies, I started wondering if people knew of any fraud cases like that.

walkerman

Why does he have to be a coin dealer to try to defraud the insurance company? For years now every type of cheat and fraud in every profession, from all walks of life has attempted to do things like this. Or are you too focused on demonizing coin dealers to have noticed? Dave W





David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com

pharmer

Since you're probably hoping for an actual answer to your question, it's probably easy to get away with, especially with raw coins. But I'm like you, I've wondered about it also. It's probably a wink-wink, nudge-nudge say-no-more kind o thingy. And the insurance company actuaries probably figure it into the cost of their policies?

Baley

be prepared to fool a polygraph and expert insurance investigators. and NEVER try to sell the items reported stolen.

PinnacleRarities

We had a brief case stolen at an airport and it took a while until the Insurance Co. paid the claim. We had to provide police reports, eye witness accounts, complete inventories along with invoices from each coin as to what we paid. Most rare coin insurance policies don't cover "mysterious" losses. You can't just go to you agent and say, "Hey! Someone stole my High Relief, please forward $28,000 to my account." You'd have to produce a police reports, and other documentation for an agent to look at it, much less pay for it. Insurance fraud is taken pretty seriously, and unless you are willing to do hard time, I don't see it happening very often.

pharmer

That's a good answer. But let's say: you have a police report cuz you reported it to the police; you have an eyewitness account onaccounta you witnessed it; you got an invoice, natch, and you take inventory so you got that also. Now, how you gonna get convicted, or even charged, with insurance fraud? This assumes the coin/coins are safely tucked away for a very long time, and are raw. Can't see how that would be very hard at all.

CoinRaritiesOnline

<< <i>That's a good answer. But let's say: you have a police report cuz you reported it to the police; you have an eyewitness account onaccounta you witnessed it; you got an invoice, natch, and you take inventory so you got that also. Now, how you gonna get convicted, or even charged, with insurance fraud? This assumes the coin/coins are safely tucked away for a very long time, and are raw. Can't see how that would be very hard at all. >>



Well, all I can say is -- that very thing was tried once. I think it was a 2 person coin dealership in PA maybe 10-15 years ago. They ran a legit Coin & Bullion operation for a number of years (I remember they ran big "Buy" ads in Coin World for years).

Then they went to a show, bought over $1 million worth of coins, then said they were robbed on the way home from the show. I don't remember all of the details, but they got caught, went to prison, and are no longer in the coin business.

Perhaps someone with a better memory than I can fill in the details. Julian? CaptHenaway? Can either of you guys help?

BlindedByEgo

Nuthin' to prevent it butt visions of "Bubba" dancing through the prospective conspirators' heads.

Michigan

Sure it can happen but it would be a very risky and foolish thing to do, filing a false police report, possibliy dealing with an insurance
investigation (you would need a very good story that was convincing). For all of the risk involved why bother?, just sell the coins to
another dealer if you wanted to get out of the business for a time.

A couple of guys in my area had a money losing restaurant that they recently set on fire in order to collect insurance money, the investigators were not fooled at all and found solid evidence that fire was set in several places in the business at the same
time, they also had videotape of the guys buying gasoline cans at a local store. They are now facing serious charges.

VamGuy

<< <i>QUESTION: Is there anything to prevent a shady dealer from saying he was robbed after a show when he really wasn't? >>

ANSWER: No.

But there are much smarter people who will be paid handsomely to prevent a shady dealer from collecting on the insurance claim.

LindeDad

Insurance companys friend.

And you say you want to play what?

roadrunner

You can claim a loss in generics that once cracked out are entirely untraceable if sold one at a time for cash. That said, go ahead and try to get insurance ever again in your business. And your overall rates will be quite high if there is any doubt as to the previous claim validity. This is a one time shot. You better make sure you have enough money socked away for life.

roadrunner

Longacre

We all pay for this type of fraud. A few weeks ago, my credit card number somehow got stolen and someone in Ghana used it to charge $5,000 worth of stuff. My account got credited in full, I doubt Citibank will travel to Ghana to try to find this dirt bag, but we all end up paying for this through higher interest rates and fees.

TheLiberator

<< <i>Why does he have to be a coin dealer to try to defraud the insurance company? For years now every type of cheat and fraud in every profession, from all walks of life has attempted to do things like this. Or are you too focused on demonizing coin dealers to have noticed? Dave W


David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com >>



Dude, I do not know who you are or what your problem is. It is unfortunate you took such offense to a genuine question. If you think I am trying to "demonize" anyone, you have got the wrong idea. Anyone on these boards who knows me could tell you that so keep your snide comments to yourself.

Thanks and have a great day!

TheLiberator

<< <i>We had a brief case stolen at an airport and it took a while until the Insurance Co. paid the claim. We had to provide police reports, eye witness accounts, complete inventories along with invoices from each coin as to what we paid. Most rare coin insurance policies don't cover "mysterious" losses. You can't just go to you agent and say, "Hey! Someone stole my High Relief, please forward $28,000 to my account." You'd have to produce a police reports, and other documentation for an agent to look at it, much less pay for it. Insurance fraud is taken pretty seriously, and unless you are willing to do hard time, I don't see it happening very often. >>



Gotcha. So people DO have to kinda jump through hoops to prove what they had and how it was taken. That makes sense.

Thanks for sharing as I was not sure of what would be involved. I have never had to prove a claim on my house or property so I did not know but I guess it is the same thing as if someone came into your house and took things. I guess I thought that after a show, one case missing would be much easier to "prove" than items stolen from a home and I figured some might exploit the fact fairly often.

However, as your example shows, it might not be that easy after all. (Thank goodness!)

MrEureka

Amazingly, I googled "Channel Trading" and found nothing.

MrEureka

Longacre - Did you enjoy your vacation in Ghana?

BAJJERFAN

You sure you aint referrin to "staged" robberies?

pharmer

<< <i>Let's say you have a police report cuz you reported it to the police; you have an eyewitness account onaccounta you witnessed it; you got an invoice, natch, and you take inventory so you got that also. Now, how you gonna get convicted, or even charged, with insurance fraud? This assumes the coin/coins are safely tucked away for a very long time, and are raw. Can't see how that would be very hard at all. >>



Yeah, it would be pretty easy. And someone would only do it once anyway. The threat of going to prison is obviously quite well known to the person contemplating doing it, and so far in human history the threat of incarceration hasn't lower the crime rates, has it?

BAJJERFAN

<< Why does he have to be a coin dealer to try to defraud the insurance company? For years now every type of cheat and fraud in every profession, from all walks of life has attempted to do things like this. Or are you too focused on demonizing coin dealers to have noticed? Dave W


David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com >>



Dude, I do not know who you are or what your problem is. It is unfortunate you took such offense to a genuine question. If you think I am trying to "demonize" anyone, you have got the wrong idea. Anyone on these boards who knows me could tell you that so keep your snide comments to yourself.

Thanks and have a great day!

,,,
I think it has to do with the fact that this is a coin related forum. I doubt that one would post questions about the ethics of big game hunting guides here.

RBinTex

no

SilverBaron

Truth is, most dealers do not have insurance on their inventory....to expensive. As a slight twist of the " I was robbed " scam....I know a dealer that was " robbed " at an Ill. show several years back. Was he robbed? No. Why did he say he was? Simple. He owed folks a lot of money for the items he had on consignment...that he had already sold and spent the $$$ on his girl friend!! When folks came to get their money.. so sorry, didnt you hear about the robbery?

SilverBaron

Mr. Eureka..... I still have one of Channel Tradings checks for $3K.... I also have the info pack from International Gold Bullion Exchange!

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>When folks came to get their money.. so sorry, didnt you hear about the robbery? >>



So how does that relieve him of his obligation to return the coins or or cough up the cash? Thats like me telling my credit card company that I can't pay because my checkbook was stolen therefore I don't owe you anything. I also realize that you can't get blood from a turnip, so you better know who yer dealin with AND get it in writing!!

TheLiberator

<< <i>Truth is, most dealers do not have insurance on their inventory....to expensive. As a slight twist of the " I was robbed " scam....I know a dealer that was " robbed " at an Ill. show several years back. Was he robbed? No. Why did he say he was? Simple. He owed folks a lot of money for the items he had on consignment...that he had already sold and spent the $$$ on his girl friend!! When folks came to get their money.. so sorry, didnt you hear about the robbery? >>



See...I thought so. People suck!

ColonialCoinUnion

<< <i>I am pretty ignorant when it comes to insurance and the like. Can't someone just say "Crap! I got robbed after the show and ALL my coins were stolen!" when nothing really happened at all? They could call the cops, file a report, hide their real inventory etc.

This seems like a REALLY easy way to defraud the insurance company but I am probably oversimplifying things.

What do you think? >>



Nothing prevents someone from filing a spurious insurance claim about stolen coins, be they a coin dealer, a coin collector, a coin speculator, etc.

Getting away with it and/or obtaining insurance going forward is a very different story.

I'm not sure what makes you believe that doing so would be "REALLY easy".

ajia

See...I thought so. People suck!

Aren't you a person?

Those of us that have never tried to defraud an insurance company can only guess how difficult it would be.

To the (silly) question, 'Is there anything to prevent a shady dealer from saying he was robbed after a show when he really wasn't?',
I would think the universal answer is NO.

ldhair

I grew up with and still know lots of police and investigators.
The last thing I would do is to look them in the eye and try to lie.
These guys get really good at reading people.
Once they have the feeling something is not right they start digging.
I was always amazed at how just simple questions ask in a nice manor could trip people up.

Still get to sit in on interviews from time to time and it is so cool to watch
people get unraveled a thread at a time.

RYK

QUESTION: Is there anything to prevent a shady dealer from saying he was robbed after a show when he really wasn't?

Yes, the same thing that prevents me from saying a that my home was robbed, and all of my wife's jewelry was stolen.

blueifalcon

My experience as an investigator tells me you just may get away with it, but if you don't, get ready to be hugged a whole bunch when you go to prison. Insurance investigators can be very good at diggy up the truth.

TwoSides2aCoin

<< <i>QUESTION: Is there anything to prevent a shady dealer from saying he was robbed after a show when he really wasn't?

Yes, the same thing that prevents me from saying a that my home was robbed, and all of my wife's jewelry was stolen. >>



A little integrity goes a long way , my friend.

walkerman

<< <i><< Why does he have to be a coin dealer to try to defraud the insurance company? For years now every type of cheat and fraud in every profession, from all walks of life has attempted to do things like this. Or are you too focused on demonizing coin dealers to have noticed? Dave W


David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com >>



Dude, I do not know who you are or what your problem is. It is unfortunate you took such offense to a genuine question. If you think I am trying to "demonize" anyone, you have got the wrong idea. Anyone on these boards who knows me could tell you that so keep your snide comments to yourself.

Thanks and have a great day!


First of all my name is not Dude. It is posted for all to see. And I don't have any problems with you.
I am frankly taking issue not solely with your post but with all the supposedly innocent hypotheticals that continually cast the coin dealer in the role of of a villainous shady character.

Whether or not you mean to demonize dealers in general this is the effect it is having on newbies and even some long time collectors when recurring posts use coin dealers as hypothetical perpetrators of dishonest transactions and other foul deeds.

Whether intended or not it helps to form a mindset against the integrity of all dealers in general. After a while it then becomes "common knowledge".

Reporting on actual dealer transgressions is something we should all applaud and is an important reason for this forum to be in existence. Everyone needs a heads up on certain dealers if they've actually been guilty of causing harm to the hobby.

I consider most dealers I know to be just as upstanding in their lives and dealings as anyone else.
My post did seem to single you out as the only "demonizer" and I apologize for that. Dave W.


David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com

TheLiberator

No problem at all Walkerman!

We both agree that most coin dealers are decent law abiding people willing to help others enjoy the hobby. Without the dealers I trust, I could not participate as much as I do.

Hats off to all the good guys!

TwoSides2aCoin

So, how about the first verse of "kumbaya" ?