Options
"Forget about that silly Form 8300. Only the two of us will know about this transaction"-
Longacre
Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
Per the IRS rules, transactions (or a series of related transactions) involving cash payments exceeding $10,000 must be reported on Form 8300. I am sure that dealers get paid in cash in excess of $10,000 all the time, and sometimes from unsavory characters. How does the dealer approach these sorts of cash transactions? For example, does the dealer disclose the dealer's filing requirement up front to the purchaser? Have any dealers encountered a response of, "forget that silly Form 8300. Just you, me, and the lamp post will know about this deal"? How do you react to this statement?
Here is a link to the form, if anyone is interested: Link
Here is a link to the form, if anyone is interested: Link
Always took candy from strangers
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
0
Comments
I know a former dealer who let himself get talked into not reporting a large cash transaction, and the buyers turned out to be Treasury agents. He did 18 months at Club Fed.
1 - Always report CASH transactions over $10,000
2 - If a customer asks if you are going to report it you must report it if the transaction is completed even if it is under $10,000
3 - You are not obligated in anyway and we were told not to tell the client that this report was being filled out on them.
4 - This applied to CASH transactions only.
Again my information is from a few years ago so if anyone has anything to add or update to this policy, fire away....
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
He always politely declines and invites them to go to another dealership.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>My brother sells higher-end cars and is frequently asked by prospective buyers (usually young men) not to report large cash sales.
He always politely declines and invites them to go to another dealership. >>
I wonder which drug they are moving?
I knew it would happen.
Lincoln set Colorless Set
<< <i>When that situation occurs, if I were on either end, how would I ever know that the other guy wouldn't someday have a change of heart and report the transaction? >>
The form contains a spot for the social security number and date of birth of the person paying cash. Might be hard to get those later unless the buyer is dumb enough to leave them with you for "your personal records."
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
No transaction resulted.
Oh, for the second part of the question, we found out a long time ago that you are better off, in the long run, not doing business with people that don't want to follow the law. We will usually say something like, "Hey buddy, we appreciate you wanting to do business with us, but we just don't do business that way, sorry."
Just a thought.
<< <i>Would it be legal for a dealer to break the larger than $10,000 transaction into two smaller than $10,000 transactions? For example, a $11,000 transaction into two $5,500 transactions?
Just a thought. >>
They can not be "related" transactions. For instance, you can't go in to a coin store and say I'd like to buy $10,000 worth of coins and pay $5,000 today, and $5,000 next week. Likewise, you can't purchase $10,000 from the same place in a 24hr period. But, you can buy $9,999.99 from a coin store today and pay cash, and then go back a couple days later and do the same thing.
<< <i>Would it be legal for a dealer to break the larger than $10,000 transaction into two smaller than $10,000 transactions? For example, a $11,000 transaction into two $5,500 transactions?
Just a thought. >>
No.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Take this stuff seriously.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Commems and Early Type
<< <i>As an ex-banker I am able to give you the regulations to a large cash transaction report as of a few years ago when I was in that industry.
1 - Always report CASH transactions over $10,000
2 - If a customer asks if you are going to report it you must report it if the transaction is completed even if it is under $10,000
3 - You are not obligated in anyway and we were told not to tell the client that this report was being filled out on them.
4 - This applied to CASH transactions only.
Again my information is from a few years ago so if anyone has anything to add or update to this policy, fire away.... >>
#2 is not necesarrily true. We had a ruling from the ICTA consultant that the 8300 may only be filed for OVER $10,000 no matter how it is done. People have actually been sued for reporting a transaction that they are not supposed to. As far as #3 is concerned, you really do need to tell the client because you need to obtain their SSN. SARS reports are for suspicious transactions under 10k which I don't even want to begin to talk about.
<< <i>
<< <i>My brother sells higher-end cars and is frequently asked by prospective buyers (usually young men) not to report large cash sales.
He always politely declines and invites them to go to another dealership. >>
I wonder which drug they are moving? >>
Actually, the majority of these prospective buyers are foreign nationals -- they far outnumber the "urban" contingent, at least at this particular dealership.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
You don't spit into the wind.........
You don't pull the mask of the ol' Lone Ranger,
And you don't mess around with (Uncle Sam)....
.....with apologies to Jim Croce'
I knew it would happen.
that sum to $10,000 over a fairly short period (probably up to a year) are imo reportable. No way would the FEDs leave you alone if you dump $9999 in cash every 24.1 hours. $3.65 Million would certainly be of interest to them.
I know that in the car collector hobby $10,000 and up cash transactions betw private parties happen all the time. It may even be the
norm. Go to any show and there will be wads of cash in bulging pockets looking to buy cars.
Most every coin dealer I know will run away from a >$10,000 cash transaction purchase.
roadrunner
<< <i>Sorry, I'm not buying the $9999 cash transaction today and then another one >24 hrs later (or even a month later). Related transactions
that sum to $10,000 over a fairly short period (probably up to a year) are imo reportable. No way would the FEDs leave you alone if you dump $9999 in cash every 24.1 hours. $3.65 Million would certainly be of interest to them.
I know that in the car collector hobby $10,000 and up cash transactions betw private parties happen all the time. It may even be the
norm. Go to any show and there will be wads of cash in bulging pockets looking to buy cars.
Most every coin dealer I know will run away from a >$10,000 cash transaction purchase.
roadrunner >>
I would talk to Ray Gregson who advises ICTA about this one because he will likely strongly disagree with you
<< <i>Note that "Cash Transactions" also include transactions involving a cashier's check, money order, bank draft, or traveler's check. >>
Unless something has changed recently the above statement is entirely incorrect.
Think about it. If every cashiers check was tracked over $10k. Anytime someone purchased, refinanced a home, purchased a car or boat etc. a form would have to be filled out.
Money order - the transaction report would occur when the money order was purchased with cash.
All the others would not need a large cash transaction report because they are not cash. The entire idea of large cash transaction report is to track cash.
All these other forms of payment are often "as good as cash" but they already leave a paper trail.
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
<< <i>
<< <i>Sorry, I'm not buying the $9999 cash transaction today and then another one >24 hrs later (or even a month later). Related transactions
that sum to $10,000 over a fairly short period (probably up to a year) are imo reportable. No way would the FEDs leave you alone if you dump $9999 in cash every 24.1 hours. $3.65 Million would certainly be of interest to them.
I know that in the car collector hobby $10,000 and up cash transactions betw private parties happen all the time. It may even be the
norm. Go to any show and there will be wads of cash in bulging pockets looking to buy cars.
Most every coin dealer I know will run away from a >$10,000 cash transaction purchase.
roadrunner >>
I would talk to Ray Gregson who advises ICTA about this one because he will likely strongly disagree with you >>
Yes, according to our AML review, someone can spend $9,999.00 today, and $1.01 tomorrow. The reason lies in that a large size company, with numerous employees, can't be expected to inform every employee when a customer spends a large amount of cash. Now, if the transaction is releated, which means a customer comes in and purchases a number of items and wants to pay cash, but wants to split up the payment over a period of days, then a form is required. Similarly, if a customer wants to pay for a single $10,000+ item over a period of days, a form is required. But, if a customer wants to buy a 1oz eagle today, then notices gold drops $20 the next day and wants to buy 14 more, no form is required, even though the total for both transactions exceed $10,000. In other words, you can spend $10,000 or more in cash at a single company. The idea that there is a timeframe involved is not accurate.
<< <i>
<< <i>Note that "Cash Transactions" also include transactions involving a cashier's check, money order, bank draft, or traveler's check. >>
Unless something has changed recently the above statement is entirely incorrect.
Think about it. If every cashiers check was tracked over $10k. Anytime someone purchased, refinanced a home, purchased a car or boat etc. a form would have to be filled out.
Money order - the transaction report would occur when the money order was purchased with cash.
All the others would not need a large cash transaction report because they are not cash. The entire idea of large cash transaction report is to track cash.
All these other forms of payment are often "as good as cash" but they already leave a paper trail. >>
The above is partially true. If it is a single instrument valued $10,000 or above, then no reporting is required because the bank would have already done so. However, if it is a combination of payments that add up to $10,000, the reporting is required.
John
<< <i>Note that "Cash Transactions" also include transactions involving a cashier's check, money order, bank draft, or traveler's check. >>
Are you 100% sure on this, I have been told by a couple of bullion dealers, that it is only cash, since there is no record of it, whereas with bc, mo etc. there is.
morris <><
** I would take a shack on the Rock over a castle in the sand !! **
Don't take life so seriously...nobody gets out alive.
ALL VALLEY COIN AND JEWELRY
28480 B OLD TOWN FRONT ST
TEMECULA, CA 92590
(951) 757-0334
www.allvalleycoinandjewelry.com
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Most businesses that handle larger amounts of cash tend to be small businesses: coin dealers, antique shops, jewelry stores,
etc. They have a very small number of staff and know who is buying what. Often the shop owner is the guy transacting most of the business. Again, I find it extremely hard to fathom that the someone can launder $3.65 Million and be legit. Yet the guy who writes 2 checks for a $10,001 coin is a lying sob crook. Something tells me that the first party would be in court (then jail) a lot faster than party #2.
If this is the case then I'd better start making a point of buying everything in cash (under $9999 of course) the same day. And alternating days. I'm sure my bank and the FED won't see this as one bit suspicous.
roadrunner
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Its efficacy as a night time sedative is well-documented.
I knew it would happen.
Many dealers and collectors just follow "common sense" and consider a "trade" anything they want it to be. The tax law is far more detailed, to the point where almost nothing may qualify for a legit trade. But that topic has been discussed here in the past.
roadrunner
<< <i>For a graduate question in coin tax law go figure out all the ins and outs of "like-kind exchanges." In particular, who and what qualifies.
Many dealers and collectors just follow "common sense" and consider a "trade" anything they want it to be. The tax law is far more detailed, to the point where almost nothing may qualify for a legit trade. But that topic has been discussed here in the past.
roadrunner >>
I swear those damn Congressmen are in a conspiracy with the tax lawyers. The law is written as clearly as pea soup, and the tax lawyer have a field day interpreting and arguing it.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>Niether the Buyer or Seller can engaqe in " structuring" the transaction to avoid the reporting rule. The seller must ask for more than a ssn, he must see and record proof of identity. "Linked" transactions are any amounts that =10K/yr., or more. Regards and Respectfully, John Curlis. PS, why would anybody want to avoid filing, and invite investigation or being "held hostage" to the possibility of discovery some day? >>
^ This is correct. Leon Hendrickson of SilverTowne did time for sub $10k transactions over a period of many months.
Regarding money orders and bank counter checks (cashier's checks): The producer reports any cash purchase of an instrument of $3000 or more.
Tax laws are meant to be interpretable. That way they can haul if you off to jail regardless of what you do. If they want you, they have you. A local dealer in my area fought the IRS for something like 10 years. They were after him for making a killing in the 1980 silver and gold market. He finally settled for something like $250K-500K just to be done with them. I know it pained him terribly to have to finally consent if he was ever going to march on with his life. Didn't matter if he was right. The FED's wanted him and got him.
roadrunner
Ya think?
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>jmski52, the funnier thing is that this law wasn't written by a lawyer.Regards and Respectfully, John Curlis PS: IT WAS "PASSED" BY LAWYERS, THOUGH, AS SOON AS THE PROBABILITY OF FUTURE REPRESENTATION FEES MOVED TO THE FRONT OF THE REASONING PROCESS. >>
The tax law is written based on policy (social and political). That's the underpinning of it, more so than any other law. It has nothing to do with future representation fees.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>Sorry, I'm not buying the $9999 cash transaction today and then another one >24 hrs later (or even a month later). Related transactions
that sum to $10,000 over a fairly short period (probably up to a year) are imo reportable. No way would the FEDs leave you alone if you dump $9999 in cash every 24.1 hours. $3.65 Million would certainly be of interest to them.
I know that in the car collector hobby $10,000 and up cash transactions betw private parties happen all the time. It may even be the
norm. Go to any show and there will be wads of cash in bulging pockets looking to buy cars.
Most every coin dealer I know will run away from a >$10,000 cash transaction purchase.
roadrunner >>
I think your right.
My understanding is that in alot of cases a series of cash transactions exceeding 10.000 can qualify for reporting.
Considering that lawyers write the tax codes and then get them passed as law, I find the above statement hard to swallow.
With lawyers, it is very much "all about the fees and future business." Social implications is the last thing considered.
If given to a vote to the American people I suspect they would agree to abolish the tax code and go to something simple - like about 10 pages rather than 10,000 (or whatever it currently is).
Clearly it's lawyers and politicians that want the tax code to stay intact as is even if their constituents would vote against it.
During a talk, Warren Buffet recently bet a group of zillionaires that if one of them could prove he paid a larger share of his income in taxes than their secretaries, he would give that person $1,000,000. No one has collected.
roadrunner
<< <i>Considering that lawyers write the tax codes and then get them passed as law, I find the above statement hard to swallow.
With lawyers, it is very much "all about the fees and future business." Social implications is the last thing considered. >>
This is completely wrong. Take a read through the Code and you will clearly see social policy throughout. It has nothing to do with generating future fees for lawyers.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>
<< <i>jmski52, the funnier thing is that this law wasn't written by a lawyer.Regards and Respectfully, John Curlis PS: IT WAS "PASSED" BY LAWYERS, THOUGH, AS SOON AS THE PROBABILITY OF FUTURE REPRESENTATION FEES MOVED TO THE FRONT OF THE REASONING PROCESS. >>
The tax law is written based on policy (social and political). That's the underpinning of it, more so than any other law. It has nothing to do with future representation fees. >>
You mean tax lawyers aren't involved in lobbying Congress for self-serving reasons?
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
How about the constitution which states that our money supply is to be based on a certain fineness of silver coiinage....yet here we are on a 100% fiat backed system. And not only that, we pay interest on fiat money to the FED reserve (which cost them nothing to make). Fed = a banking cartel entity made up of the old time banking families in the USA and Europe (Morgan, Chase, Rothschilds, etc). They are neither Federal nor have anything in reserve. Anyone reading our constitution would say I was nuts if I believed we have pure fiat money....after all the law says differently.
I believe what I can see and touch......not what words say.
The founding fathers would roll in their graves if they knew what eventually evolved out of their orig system.
roadrunner
<< <i>Would it be legal for a dealer to break the larger than $10,000 transaction into two smaller than $10,000 transactions? For example, a $11,000 transaction into two $5,500 transactions?
Just a thought. >>
No. It's even a crime to suggest it.
<< <i>I am sure that dealers get paid in cash in excess of $10,000 all the time >>
Really? We never do.