Accugrade Scam?
AdrianATY
Posts: 6
Hi guys! Been doing a bit of research over coins collection. I've just "sorta" inherited some coins that my father bought in the US last time when he's there. I'm currently in Australia. He bought them in the late 80s.
So the coins are actually in slabs. They are Indian head $2.5 $5 $10, $20 liberty head with double eagle at the back, and also 1 St. Gauden $20.
Now I've done a bit of research to at least know a bit about the grading system. MS63 64 65 etc etc...
But the coins slabs that I've got seem to be grade using the Accugrade system which seems to have a very bad reputation. Anyway, all of the coins have a "A3-63C" on them. I assume A3 is Full Strike and cleaned/dull. But what about 63C? MS63?
Anyway, all of the coins are accugraded except the St. Gauden which is NIC (Numismatic Investments Corporation) I think? This one's MS64. I got a cert to go with it too to prove authenticity.
Now I know I should have at least posted some pictures which will make all this much easier. But I'm just wondering are the coins I'm holding worth anything at all or did my father got scammed by Accugrade?
I can't seem to find anything about Accugrade and their website seems very lacking to say the least. And all the threads/forums that mention Accugrade are all negative.
Please help.
Adrian.
So the coins are actually in slabs. They are Indian head $2.5 $5 $10, $20 liberty head with double eagle at the back, and also 1 St. Gauden $20.
Now I've done a bit of research to at least know a bit about the grading system. MS63 64 65 etc etc...
But the coins slabs that I've got seem to be grade using the Accugrade system which seems to have a very bad reputation. Anyway, all of the coins have a "A3-63C" on them. I assume A3 is Full Strike and cleaned/dull. But what about 63C? MS63?
Anyway, all of the coins are accugraded except the St. Gauden which is NIC (Numismatic Investments Corporation) I think? This one's MS64. I got a cert to go with it too to prove authenticity.
Now I know I should have at least posted some pictures which will make all this much easier. But I'm just wondering are the coins I'm holding worth anything at all or did my father got scammed by Accugrade?
I can't seem to find anything about Accugrade and their website seems very lacking to say the least. And all the threads/forums that mention Accugrade are all negative.
Please help.
Adrian.
0
Comments
Don't know anything about the gold, brother, but welcome aboard. How you?
So is now just a bad market to sell gold coins?
Thanks all cause I'm a noob when it comes to gold coins.
What led you to this conclusion?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
I know its not much, but like I said, I'm really a newbie to all this so please enlighten me. Thanks.
I'd join here as a silver member, get some free grading and send them to PCGS. JMHO though
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via coin submissions.
i remember joining the boards here and the lawsuit was just
starting to settle down. imagine accugrade sued everyone who
said anything bad about them. so they picked some enemies and
took them to court. total douche bags in my opinion.
i want to say, thank god your father bought gold. as long as they
are authentic coins they have value!!!
you need to take them to a coin dealer or 3 (because brick and
mortar coin dealers are as honest as dirt overall) and get opinions.
do you have a camera? take pics and post them here. you will get
an honest opinion.
good luck and once again i am glad they are gold and accugrade
was a scam. plain and simple. they make other grading companies
look superb.
Accugrade had a reputation for over-grading and certifying coins as pristine that today’s top graders would consider problem coins.
So... your coins may not grade anywhere near what they are certified as, then again... they might.
If you have a reputable dealer in your area you may want to bring them in to them for a check.
...
<< <i>Not trying to be dramatic, but your dad probably bought those coins during the very worst time period to do so in modern history. Gold hit prices around that time that it still hasn’t reached. Over $800 US/ounce...
Accugrade had a reputation for over-grading and certifying coins as pristine that today’s top graders would consider problem coins.
So... your coins may not grade anywhere near what they are certified as, then again... they might.
If you have a reputable dealer in your area you may want to bring them in to them for a check. >>
I thought that was from like 79-80? But yeah, coin prices were very high during that time period, especially for generic stuff like you have. Many of those coins have not made their way back to those levels.
Put it this way, Accugrade has been involved in several law suits and MANY people question the company's ethics. That's all I'll say.
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
<< <i>Whatever happened in that lawsuit anyway? I lost track of it when they dropped several people from the suit, but were continuing to pursue several others. >>
Accugrade received a settlement out of court. I still wonder about the money that was donated to the ANA Legal Fund. To my knowledge ANA will neither disclose the amount or account for the money. Maybe the new Board will make this public knowledge.
The owner of ACG had a different opinion as opposed to most you will see as he states here.
By the principal of ACG Grading Company
After reviewing the PNG-ITCA Survey in Coin World so many questions come to mind.
I wonder how many of your readers know the FACTS about some of the leading members of this Industry? Let’s just start with those that are PNG/ITCA/PCGS members and or owners. On July 20,1989 in an FTC Press Release “FTC FILES CHARGES AGAINST COIN CERTIFICATION CO. AND COIN WHOLESALER; COMPANIES TO PAY CONSUMER REDRESS”. The coin certification company that they are referring to is NCI, Numismatic Certification Institute, owned by Steve Ivy and James Halperin. NCI’s affiliate, Heritage Capital Corporation, was also charged. “Under the settlement, the companies and two individuals agreed to a permanent injunction, and Heritage and NCI agreed to contribute $1.2 million into a consumer redress plan...” FTC File No. 882-3208, Civil Action No. 89-1383 CIV-NESBITT), www.ftc.gov, Barron’s, 6/19/89, pp.16-32. NCI is still listed on the CDN price sheet.
On February 9,1990 the FTC issued the following Press Release, ”SPECIAL COUNSEL APPOINTED AT REQUEST OF FTC RECOVERS ADDITIONAL FUNDS FOR CONSUMERS IN RARE COIN COMPANY BANKRUPTCY.”.The release states, ”Today’s additional settlements bring total recovery in excess of $4 million.” “In February 1987, the FTC brought suit against Standard Financial Management Corp., charging, among other things, that the company falsely represented that its coins were of a specific grade, when in many cases the coins were of a significantly inferior grade...
Shortly after the FTC suit, the Special Counsel initiated bankruptcy proceedings brought various actions against several principals and suppliers of Standard Financial Management Corp. He has succeeded in obtaining settlements from supplier Kevin Lipton and former Standard Financial owner James Halperin for $1.4 million and $1.3 million, respectively.” FTC File No. X870002, www.ftc.gov.
On August 17,1990 the FTC issued a press release regarding PCGS. “FTC CHARGES COIN CERTIFICATION CO. MISREPRESENTS OBJECTIVITY OF ITS COIN GRADING SERVICES; COMPANY AGREES TO SETTLEMENT” The FTC charged that “PCGS misled consumers by falsely claiming that it provides consistent, objective grading of coins and that investment in PCGS-certified rare coins eliminates all the risk associated with the grading of coins.” PCGS/David Hall was charged and placed on probation for 2 years. Civil Action No. 90-1982, www.ftc.gov, New York Times, 8/17/90 p.D2, The Wall Street Journal, 8/17/90, pp.C1,C12.
These are the people who are behind this Survey. They are all PNG,ITCA and PCGS members today. Together they were “fined in excess of $4 million.” They will tell us that they disqualified themselves due to ownership and/or partial ownership. Of the estimated 221 PNG members, only four have dealt with Accugrade in the past two years. In February 2001 PNG sent a letter to members who were dealing in ACG coins threatening expulsion. Of the estimated 430 survey forms mailed, 141 were reported filled out and returned, @32 percent. Virtually 68 percent refused to be party to this sham survey.
The number of PNG and ITCA members who did not participate speaks louder than the 141 who did. 141 monopolist PNG-ITCA members, who are predominantly PCGS dealers, responded out of an estimated 5,000 dealers nationwide (as listed in CDN ‘02 Dealer Directory) to presumably speak for “The Coin Industry.” These 141 find ACG “unacceptable”...this represents @2.8 percent of the Coin Industry. 98 percent of PNG members have never used or dealt in ACG. This survey shows how out of touch PNG-ITCA is with the Coin Industry.
The fact that PNG has pressured their dealers into NOT dealing in ACG coins, as evidenced in a letter dated 2/28/01 sent out by Robert Bruggerman, Executive Director, then surveys them in regards to USING ASA Accugrade... mystifies me!
They find ACG to be “unacceptable” in almost all of their “categories”:
Detecting counterfeits—we have graded four counterfeits out of 300,000 coins in the last three years. I believe that gives Accugrade a 99.9999 percent accuracy rate, we have resolved three and one is pending, how is this unacceptable?
Customer service, cost, turnaround time, quality of holder—We take great exception to being found generally “unacceptable” in these areas, this furthers my position that these dealers have never even used our service...in 18 years of business we have never had a major complaint, lawsuit, or Government charge. We pride ourselves in out Customer Service Dept., our cost is one of the lowest in the industry. We have never missed a designated turnaround time and the quality of our Holders surpasses all the other services and I challenge them on this matter. Our holders are American-made by a New England craftsman of the highest quality Dupont acrylic and are the safest on the market, no PVC inserts!
As to Grading guarantees, General marketability and Availability of pricing information—We know these are our weak areas and that is for the following reasons...we are a small company who has been set upon by a Big Corporation and counterfeits have been submitted to our service, in the past, knowingly in the hopes to discredit us. We stand behind the authenticity and the consistency of our grading. Regarding marketability, ACG coins have done very well on e-Bay but CDN still refuses to list them even though CDN lists NCI which is out of business and was sited by the FTC. We were led to believe that when ACG coins reached 80,000 units CDN would list ACG, today we are at 300,000 units, when asked again recently by a California PCGS dealer when ACG will be listed, Sean Downings replied “we’re waiting for them to go away.” When a California entrepreneur/collector came up with a pricing Web site and publication listing ACG prices along with other certified coins, his Web site somehow crashed and he was soon out of business.
PCGS can’t allow pricing information for any of the small grading services because that would destroy their Franchise. In a free-market system competition should be encouraged and choices allowed to the public. We are not afforded this in the Coin Industry, which certainly raises issues of ANTITRUST and RACKETEERING!
I will leave you with this thought...The S.S. Central America...coins sold exclusively by Heritage, David Hall, Bowers and Merena and others, mostly PNG members/PCGS dealers. Over 5,000 coins that had been buried at sea for over 120 years encrusted with coral were treated with all kinds of chemicals to remove the encrustations, were miraculously restored to PCGS MS-65 at $15,000.00 a coin. The PCGS holders do not say SEA SALVAGED nor SALT WATER nor CORAL ENCRUSTED, no they have been graded by PCGS as MINT STATE. Have these people changed from 1989, you decide for yourself at www.ftc.gov.
ASA Accugrade, Inc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Barry Stuppler ANA governor PNG Survey $4 million in FTC fines
David Hall Coins
DHRC Coins
Kevin Lipton Coins
Robert Bruggerman PNG President
Collector's Universe
Positive Protection PNG President
PCGS
Coin price guide
PNG
The industry ICTA Industry Council for Tangible Assets Survey
Heritage Rare Coins
Jim Halperin Coins
Steve Ivy Coins
Chance favors the prepared mind.
It's really sad actually. My parents always thought of this as some kind of a big investment (they bought in when they are in their late 20s). Sad to say they might have been scammed. But I'm not going to any conclusions yet. I'll post pics ASAP. Quite a good community you got here actually.
Can't find any Information at all about US gold coins in Australia though, will try harder. There's a gold coin convention going on in Melbourne sometime around October but can't seem to find any info on the coins I've got.
Is selling through EBAY a good idea if I can't find any gold coin dealers here?
Heck another option would be to wait 20 years more and hope that GOLD price will go up...
<< <i>but your Dad might have did okay for the time depending upon what he paid for them. >>
Yeah, right. Not to be too negative, but from a realistic standpoint, your dad probably paid 2-5 times what each coin was worth.
I feel bad for him, because I imagine it must have been particularly easy to overpay for coins before the advent of the internet--although anyone who categorically says "these are definitely going to go up in value" should cause a person to do a double-take.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
1907 $20 Gold St. Gauden MS-64/64 $2200
1904 $20 type III liberty gold A3-63C $1900
1916-s gold indian $10 a3-63c $3600
1914-d $5 gold indian a3-63c $4600
From what I checked from the heritage website, the price of these coins seems be down 50%.
<< <i>
<< <i>but your Dad might have did okay for the time depending upon what he paid for them. >>
Yeah, right. Not to be too negative, but from a realistic standpoint, your dad probably paid 2-5 times what each coin was worth.
I feel bad for him, because I imagine it must have been particularly easy to overpay for coins before the advent of the internet--although anyone who categorically says "these are definitely going to go up in value" should cause a person to do a double-take. >>
I am just trying to be realalistic as we don't really know what was paid then we don't know if he paid too much. I have bought several ACG coins at very cheap prices- gold coins at bullion levels- so how do we know this is not the case here too?
<< <i>Probably your Dad got these coins at a fraction of the cost of PCGS/ANACS graded coin during this time period. For a while ACG grading was not as bad as became in the later years. Also if the holder said cleaned he must have had a clue on what he was getting. Not trying to stick up for ACG but your Dad might have did okay for the time depending upon what he paid for them. >>
Yes I agree.
Also a sharp dealer/collector can tell if a coin has been cleaned, whizzed,
tooled or what have you, without knowledgeable of the series. They can
tell the difference between hair lines and die polish, NT vs. AT, etc. So
don't discount your local experts.
Another thing to consider is just taking GOOD photos of them and listing
on ebay as is (if you do intend to sell). Tell the facts and let the buyers
decide for themselves what they are looking at.
But take good pictures!
...
<< <i>Ok I didn't know you need a proper set up to photograph coins. I've tried first using a proper digital camera but everything is just blurred when I put the camera up close. Then I try using my mobile phone, nope to that too. To answer the poster above, here's the price my father paid for the coins.
1907 $20 Gold St. Gauden MS-64/64 $2200
1904 $20 type III liberty gold A3-63C $1900
1916-s gold indian $10 a3-63c $3600
1914-d $5 gold indian a3-63c $4600
From what I checked from the heritage website, the price of these coins seems be down 50%. >>
After seeing those prices I don't think he did so well
I don't really need any money, but if I'm better off selling them and putting them in term deposits...why not...
If the coin is genuine and uncleaned, you can expect it to grade 3-4 points lower at PCGS than at ACG.
As you are aware, you have some old ACG slabs. According to a book on slabs, written by the most unfortunately poof'ed condor101, likely these coins were slabbed circa 1984 or so. (Incidentally, the fact that these are in old slabs might actually add a bit to their value because some collectors collect different types of slabs. Unfortunately because the value of the gold coin itself is so high, any additional value from the type of slab is likely to be small.) I was not collecting at the time, but it might be (and I stress might be) the case that ACG's grading at that time is different from their grading at the present. Oftentimes encapsulating companies slowly (or, more rarely, rapidly) change their grading standards. Perhaps some "old timer" might be willing to comment on ACG's grading circa 1984.
For those who asked about the grading, at the time ACG graded both the strike and the surface. Strikes were graded A = Full, B= Soft, C = Flat and surfaces were graded 1 = Frosted, 2 = Brilliant, and 3 = Cleaned-Hairlined. Hence the "a3" part of the grade indicates a "full strike, cleaned-harilined." The "c" after the numerical grade stands for "commercial grade." I have no idea if there were ever other letters after the numerical grade.
<< <i>
But the coins slabs that I've got seem to be grade using the Accugrade system which seems to have a very bad reputation. Anyway, all of the coins have a "A3-63C" on them. I assume A3 is Full Strike and cleaned/dull. But what about 63C? MS63? >>
These were graded about 20 years ago and may not be as bad as people are telling you. I would send them in to PCGS in the slabs and instrct them to reslab them at any grade.
<< <i>"the Accugrade system which seems to have a very bad reputation."
What led you to this conclusion? >>
Come on Pharmer, I know that you dont live under a rock. Ever hear of the Charlotte ANA hearings in 2003 or so??????
I know you have!
TorinoCobra71
Why don't you try backing the camera off the coin a little and try taking the pics from 6 to 8 inches away so as to light the coin well and avoid extreme blurriness.
You have been sitting on these for 20 plus years-give yourself a few days to try to best determine what you really have there.
<< <i>They never did do any research though. And in those days, there's no ebay or internet for that matter. >>
Back then books and publications were the tools of the trade.
Young Numismatist ............................ and growing!
<< <i>Third tier slabbers have been known to slab counterfeits so you can't even assume they're real coins. As far as I'm concerned, these coins are no better than raw. >>
First tier slabbers have been known to slab counterfeits too. The difference is that's a higher probability of getting a counterfeit in a third-tier slab and that you generally don't have an authenticity guarantee to rely on with third-tier slabbers.