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Saxony 1630 5 ducat commemorates the 1530 Augburg Confession

bidaskbidask Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited July 26, 2020 1:10PM in World & Ancient Coins Forum
There is one graded au 58 by pcgs. I could not find any on ngc census. Nor in coin archives. Anyone know anything about this coin?
I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




Comments

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,721 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I know nothing about this slabbed coin

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • 3Mark3Mark Posts: 593 ✭✭✭


    << <i>There is one graded au 58 by pcgs. I could not find any on ngc census. Nor in coin archives. Anyone know anything about this coin? >>



    Dan:

    I will take a shot at it and some of it is only a guessimage It was issued for the Centennial of the Augsburg Confession and features Luther's motto "turris fortissima nomen domini" or "A mighty fortress is our God" and the bust of Johann, the elector of Saxony in 1530, who presented the Lutheran Confession to the Holy Roman Emperor. The other side has the current elector of Saxony, Johann Georg I. This is where some of the guess comes in. I think it was struck with the dies for the 1/2 thaler and the larger 10 Ducat were struck with the dies of the thaler. Like all German gold ducats, the larger the size the more rare the coin and this piece would probably be at least RRR in the one to 5 "R" scale. I personally have never seen one above the 2 ducat size and I am not surprised that there is only one listed in the pop report for PCGS and NGC, because of the rarity. I can stand any correction on the above.3Mark
    I'm traveling on memory and running out of fuel.
  • Those are some pretty good guesses. While both the thaler and and the 5 ducat have same design, the same dies weren't used. The 5 ducat is 38mm and the 1/2 thaler 40mm. They struck 1, 2, 3, 4, thru 12 ducat coins for the series and each had their own dies. But there were some 2 ducat coins also struck with 1 ducat dies. Only the 12 ducat is considered rare.
    knowledge ........ share it
  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>There is one graded au 58 by pcgs. I could not find any on ngc census. Nor in coin archives. Anyone know anything about this coin? >>



    Dan:

    I will take a shot at it and some of it is only a guessimage It was issued for the Centennial of the Augsburg Confession and features Luther's motto "turris fortissima nomen domini" or "A mighty fortress is our God" and the bust of Johann, the elector of Saxony in 1530, who presented the Lutheran Confession to the Holy Roman Emperor. The other side has the current elector of Saxony, Johann Georg I. This is where some of the guess comes in. I think it was struck with the dies for the 1/2 thaler and the larger 10 Ducat were struck with the dies of the thaler. Like all German gold ducats, the larger the size the more rare the coin and this piece would probably be at least RRR in the one to 5 "R" scale. I personally have never seen one above the 2 ducat size and I am not surprised that there is only one listed in the pop report for PCGS and NGC, because of the rarity. I can stand any correction on the above.3Mark >>

    Larry, at the end of the day Thursday I bought the AU piece.....Steve saw it but did not know alot about it. What do you mean by RRR?
    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Those are some pretty good guesses. While both the thaler and and the 5 ducat have same design, the same dies weren't used. The 5 ducat is 38mm and the 1/2 thaler 40mm. They struck 1, 2, 3, 4, thru 12 ducat coins for the series and each had their own dies. But there were some 2 ducat coins also struck with 1 ducat dies. Only the 12 ducat is considered rare. >>

    GDJMSP, I appreciate your comment....but where are all the other 5 ducats....Karl Stephen's found an auction record from 2002 for $3900. I don't know if it was the same coin. Can you direct to any reference where they list some price records or comments on rarity or lack thereof?
    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • 3Mark3Mark Posts: 593 ✭✭✭
    Dan:

    German 5 "R" scale:

    R - selten
    RR - sehr selten
    RRR - äusserst selten (pardon to the Germans, but I forgot how to make a double "s")
    RRRR - von grösster Seltenheit (same again on the double "s")
    RRRRR - in dieser Erhaltung im Handel bislang nicht vorgekommen

    I will talk to Dirk tomorrow to find out what I can.

    Larry (3Mark)
    I'm traveling on memory and running out of fuel.
  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Dan:

    German 5 "R" scale:

    R - selten
    RR - sehr selten
    RRR - äusserst selten (pardon to the Germans, but I forgot how to make a double "s")
    RRRR - von grösster Seltenheit (same again on the double "s")
    RRRRR - in dieser Erhaltung im Handel bislang nicht vorgekommen

    I will talk to Dirk tomorrow to find out what I can.

    Larry (3Mark) >>

    Larry, please translate in english.
    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.






  • << <i> GDJMSP, I appreciate your comment....but where are all the other 5 ducats....Karl Stephen's found an auction record from 2002 for $3900. I don't know if it was the same coin. Can you direct to any reference where they list some price records or comments on rarity or lack thereof? >>



    Sure, I based my comment on rarity on what is listed in Friedberg's Gold Coins of the World. That being said, whether one can say that something is rare or not depends a lot on your definition of rare. In a general sense, to me rare means that there are less than 10 examples known.

    There are a lot of rarity scales in use, all of them have different meanings. With the one that 3Mark is using, RRR falls in the middle with R being the most common and RRRRR being the most rare. In this case, I would interpret RRR to mean scarce, but by no means rare.

    As for value, I have no idea at the present time. But I will dig around some and see what I can find.
    knowledge ........ share it
  • worldcoinguyworldcoinguy Posts: 2,999 ✭✭✭✭
    Coincidence in timing for this 1 ducat auction for a 1630 confession piece?
    eBay auction


  • << <i>Coincidence in timing for this 1 ducat auction for a 1630 confession piece?
    eBay auction >>



    I'll say this - they were sure liberal with allowances for cabinet friction on that coin.
    knowledge ........ share it
  • 3Mark3Mark Posts: 593 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Dan:

    German 5 "R" scale:

    R - selten (rare)
    RR - sehr selten (very rare)
    RRR - äusserst selten (pardon to the Germans, but I forgot how to make a double "s") (most rare)
    RRRR - von grösster Seltenheit (same again on the double "s") (of the highest rarity)
    RRRRR - in dieser Erhaltung im Handel bislang nicht vorgekommen (You had better buy this puppy because it's the only one)

    This is my liberal interpretation of Germanimage I usually think of RRRR as 10 or less. I should have also added that usually the larger the size of the ducat, the more expensive they are.3Mark
    I'm traveling on memory and running out of fuel.
  • PreussenPreussen Posts: 2,307 ✭✭✭


    << <i> RRRRR - in dieser Erhaltung im Handel bislang nicht vorgekommen (You had better buy this puppy because it's the only one) >>

    image Pretty close image -Preussen
    "Illegitimis non carborundum" -General Joseph Stilwell. See my auctions
  • HussuloHussulo Posts: 2,953 ✭✭✭
    German 5 "R" scale:

    R - selten (rare)
    RR - sehr selten (very rare)
    RRR - äusserst selten (pardon to the Germans, but I forgot how to make a double "s") (most rare)
    RRRR - von grösster Seltenheit (same again on the double "s") (of the highest rarity)
    RRRRR - in dieser Erhaltung im Handel bislang nicht vorgekommen (You had better buy this puppy because it's the only one)

    image Like it!
  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I bought the 5 ducat pcgs au 58.......very tough to decide if I overpaid...but I like it....will try to have some pics sometime.
    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • worldcoinguyworldcoinguy Posts: 2,999 ✭✭✭✭
    Wow - I look forward to seeing this one! I wouldn't have the first guestimate on a fair price, but I would imagine that the seller would control the price on a scarce coin like this that does not have any peers for comparison.
  • FilamCoinsFilamCoins Posts: 1,899 ✭✭✭

    @btcollects said:
    nice coin, thanks for posting that picture so fast

    lol 😀

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,892 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bidask said:
    I bought the 5 ducat pcgs au 58.......very tough to decide if I overpaid...

    Think you'll be just fine with this one!

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • jimhopkins1919jimhopkins1919 Posts: 101 ✭✭✭

    Wow!

  • Hello,
    congratiulations! This one is really rare. Within my one year research (for a book about these coins) I found only 28 specimens in the international auctions of the last 50 years. There were only 5 pieces with the above combination of obvers/revers.
    This One is from Superior Stamps & Coins - Pre-Long Beach Coin Auction, Lot 803
    https://archive.org/details/prelongbeachcoin2003supe/page/78

    best regards
    Mario Weidner
    http://numismatik.mario-weidner.de

  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Upgraded today by 2 points 😄

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




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