Saxony 1630 5 ducat commemorates the 1530 Augburg Confession

bidask

There is one graded au 58 by pcgs. I could not find any on ngc census. Nor in coin archives. Anyone know anything about this coin?

coinkat

I know nothing about this slabbed coin

3Mark

<< <i>There is one graded au 58 by pcgs. I could not find any on ngc census. Nor in coin archives. Anyone know anything about this coin? >>



Dan:

I will take a shot at it and some of it is only a guess It was issued for the Centennial of the Augsburg Confession and features Luther's motto "turris fortissima nomen domini" or "A mighty fortress is our God" and the bust of Johann, the elector of Saxony in 1530, who presented the Lutheran Confession to the Holy Roman Emperor. The other side has the current elector of Saxony, Johann Georg I. This is where some of the guess comes in. I think it was struck with the dies for the 1/2 thaler and the larger 10 Ducat were struck with the dies of the thaler. Like all German gold ducats, the larger the size the more rare the coin and this piece would probably be at least RRR in the one to 5 "R" scale. I personally have never seen one above the 2 ducat size and I am not surprised that there is only one listed in the pop report for PCGS and NGC, because of the rarity. I can stand any correction on the above.3Mark

GDJMSP

Those are some pretty good guesses. While both the thaler and and the 5 ducat have same design, the same dies weren't used. The 5 ducat is 38mm and the 1/2 thaler 40mm. They struck 1, 2, 3, 4, thru 12 ducat coins for the series and each had their own dies. But there were some 2 ducat coins also struck with 1 ducat dies. Only the 12 ducat is considered rare.

bidask

<< <i>

<< <i>There is one graded au 58 by pcgs. I could not find any on ngc census. Nor in coin archives. Anyone know anything about this coin? >>



Dan:

I will take a shot at it and some of it is only a guess It was issued for the Centennial of the Augsburg Confession and features Luther's motto "turris fortissima nomen domini" or "A mighty fortress is our God" and the bust of Johann, the elector of Saxony in 1530, who presented the Lutheran Confession to the Holy Roman Emperor. The other side has the current elector of Saxony, Johann Georg I. This is where some of the guess comes in. I think it was struck with the dies for the 1/2 thaler and the larger 10 Ducat were struck with the dies of the thaler. Like all German gold ducats, the larger the size the more rare the coin and this piece would probably be at least RRR in the one to 5 "R" scale. I personally have never seen one above the 2 ducat size and I am not surprised that there is only one listed in the pop report for PCGS and NGC, because of the rarity. I can stand any correction on the above.3Mark >>

Larry, at the end of the day Thursday I bought the AU piece.....Steve saw it but did not know alot about it. What do you mean by RRR?

bidask

<< <i>Those are some pretty good guesses. While both the thaler and and the 5 ducat have same design, the same dies weren't used. The 5 ducat is 38mm and the 1/2 thaler 40mm. They struck 1, 2, 3, 4, thru 12 ducat coins for the series and each had their own dies. But there were some 2 ducat coins also struck with 1 ducat dies. Only the 12 ducat is considered rare. >>

GDJMSP, I appreciate your comment....but where are all the other 5 ducats....Karl Stephen's found an auction record from 2002 for $3900. I don't know if it was the same coin. Can you direct to any reference where they list some price records or comments on rarity or lack thereof?

3Mark

Dan:

German 5 "R" scale:

R - selten
RR - sehr selten
RRR - äusserst selten (pardon to the Germans, but I forgot how to make a double "s")
RRRR - von grösster Seltenheit (same again on the double "s")
RRRRR - in dieser Erhaltung im Handel bislang nicht vorgekommen

I will talk to Dirk tomorrow to find out what I can.

Larry (3Mark)

bidask

<< <i>Dan:

German 5 "R" scale:

R - selten
RR - sehr selten
RRR - äusserst selten (pardon to the Germans, but I forgot how to make a double "s")
RRRR - von grösster Seltenheit (same again on the double "s")
RRRRR - in dieser Erhaltung im Handel bislang nicht vorgekommen

I will talk to Dirk tomorrow to find out what I can.

Larry (3Mark) >>

Larry, please translate in english.

GDJMSP

<< <i> GDJMSP, I appreciate your comment....but where are all the other 5 ducats....Karl Stephen's found an auction record from 2002 for $3900. I don't know if it was the same coin. Can you direct to any reference where they list some price records or comments on rarity or lack thereof? >>



Sure, I based my comment on rarity on what is listed in Friedberg's Gold Coins of the World. That being said, whether one can say that something is rare or not depends a lot on your definition of rare. In a general sense, to me rare means that there are less than 10 examples known.

There are a lot of rarity scales in use, all of them have different meanings. With the one that 3Mark is using, RRR falls in the middle with R being the most common and RRRRR being the most rare. In this case, I would interpret RRR to mean scarce, but by no means rare.

As for value, I have no idea at the present time. But I will dig around some and see what I can find.

worldcoinguy

Coincidence in timing for this 1 ducat auction for a 1630 confession piece?
eBay auction

GDJMSP

<< <i>Coincidence in timing for this 1 ducat auction for a 1630 confession piece?
eBay auction >>



I'll say this - they were sure liberal with allowances for cabinet friction on that coin.

3Mark

<< <i>

<< <i>Dan:

German 5 "R" scale:

R - selten (rare)
RR - sehr selten (very rare)
RRR - äusserst selten (pardon to the Germans, but I forgot how to make a double "s") (most rare)
RRRR - von grösster Seltenheit (same again on the double "s") (of the highest rarity)
RRRRR - in dieser Erhaltung im Handel bislang nicht vorgekommen (You had better buy this puppy because it's the only one)

This is my liberal interpretation of German I usually think of RRRR as 10 or less. I should have also added that usually the larger the size of the ducat, the more expensive they are.3Mark

Preussen

<< <i> RRRRR - in dieser Erhaltung im Handel bislang nicht vorgekommen (You had better buy this puppy because it's the only one) >>

Pretty close -Preussen

Hussulo

German 5 "R" scale:

R - selten (rare)
RR - sehr selten (very rare)
RRR - äusserst selten (pardon to the Germans, but I forgot how to make a double "s") (most rare)
RRRR - von grösster Seltenheit (same again on the double "s") (of the highest rarity)
RRRRR - in dieser Erhaltung im Handel bislang nicht vorgekommen (You had better buy this puppy because it's the only one)

Like it!

bidask

I bought the 5 ducat pcgs au 58.......very tough to decide if I overpaid...but I like it....will try to have some pics sometime.

worldcoinguy

Wow - I look forward to seeing this one! I wouldn't have the first guestimate on a fair price, but I would imagine that the seller would control the price on a scarce coin like this that does not have any peers for comparison.

bidask

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FilamCoins

@btcollects said:
nice coin, thanks for posting that picture so fast

lol 😀

MrEureka

@bidask said:
I bought the 5 ducat pcgs au 58.......very tough to decide if I overpaid...

Think you'll be just fine with this one!

jimhopkins1919

Wow!

weidner

Hello,
congratiulations! This one is really rare. Within my one year research (for a book about these coins) I found only 28 specimens in the international auctions of the last 50 years. There were only 5 pieces with the above combination of obvers/revers.
This One is from Superior Stamps & Coins - Pre-Long Beach Coin Auction, Lot 803
https://archive.org/details/prelongbeachcoin2003supe/page/78

best regards
Mario Weidner
http://numismatik.mario-weidner.de

bidask

Upgraded today by 2 points 😄