Advice Needed... Would like to get into Colonials!

SpaceMonkey

Ever since I started collecting on the serious side... I was attracted to colonials... most notable the Massachusetts colonials... They just grab me every single time i see them... my favorite is the pine tree shilling... just love it.

In actuality I would love for The Pine Tree Shilling to be my first purchase!

So a few questions i have....

1) Can you please recommend some good books
2) how best to collect?
3) where are these at right now in the price cycle? Up Mid Down?
4) I don't particularly like to collect too low a grade (unless it has significant eye appeal) so am I in for a tough time?

Thanks for any helpful insight anyone can offer... this is real exciting for me!!

/ed

mrearlygold

Pine trees are quite a bit more than they were a few years ago. I like them too though and think they are a good buy if you are collecting for the long term.

A Breen encyclopedia is a good start....another great resource would be auction catalogues with prices realized.

I also like NJ's, and a variety of other Colonials.

Appears as though you like Oregons too eh?

Fletcher

Talk to Coin Rarities Online (CRO).

SpaceMonkey

<< <i>Talk to Coin Rarities Online (CRO).

>>



oh yeah... thanks fletcher that reminds me... where are good places to seek out these treasures for a fair price? (in addition to fletchers suggestion of course!)


thanks all!

/ed

MidLifeCrisis

Colonials - and colonial era coins, tokens, and medals - are some of the best collections you can build, in my opinion. They are full of history and interesting stories. They are unusual. They are generally more rare than federal issues and include some major rarities. And they are fun to own!


<< <i>1) Can you please recommend some good books >>


I will echo mrearlygold's advice. The "Complete Encyclopedia of US and Colonial Coins" by Walter Breen is a great place to start. I suspect you know about Breen though, so you know that anything he wrote must be read with a salt shaker handy. Still a good all-around reference to get the basics down.

"The Early Coins of America" by Sylvester Crosby is another must-have book.

But, as mrearlygold also stated, I think the best source of information about colonial era coins is auction catalogs. I would recommend Norweb, Roper, Taylor, Picker, and the Ford series.


<< <i>2) how best to collect? >>


Although I'm not a registry "fanatic", I use the "PCGS Early American Coins and Tokens With Major Varieties" set registry as a guide to help me focus my collecting efforts. See my sig line. Like any other area of collecting, you have to decide what you like...and it appears you already have with the Mass Colonials.

I would find one or two major dealers who specialize in Colonials and buy from or through them. Like Fletcher, I would whole-heartedly recommend Coin Rarities Online (specifically ColonialCoinUnion, but both John and Dave are great.) In fact, most of the advice I'm giving you comes from my long conversations with CCU and the advice he's given me or from their website.

I would not buy at auction without going through, and getting representation from a specialist dealer.

I would take my time and look for really choice, original pieces...I'd try to buy coins with a pedigree and a traceable history.


<< <i>3) where are these at right now in the price cycle? Up Mid Down? >>


Hard to say, but it seems to me that prices across the board for colonials are on the rise. And the recent results of the Heritage Platinum Night auctions seem to indicate that as well. Still, bargains can be found - even on really rare coins.


<< <i>4) I don't particularly like to collect too low a grade (unless it has significant eye appeal) so am I in for a tough time? >>


Maybe. I used to collect only Mint State coins...in fact, I really only wanted MS 64 and higher. When I got into colonials, though, I really had to adjust my attitude!

Some colonial coins just don't exist in mint state. Some are so rare and popular that they are prohibitively expensive in high grades. You should study the series and decide what the "optimal collector grade" will be for you...but remember that high grade colonials are very difficult to find!

Don't let all this spook you though. Colonials are fascinating and really fun to collect! All the best...

Aegis3

In addition to the other auction catalogs mentioned, get a copy of the Hain catalog (Stack's, January 2002). Make sure you get the Massachusetts silver catalog and not the Americana catalog of the same name.

You'll probably also want to get the Sydney Noe volume on Pine Tree coinage (published by the ANS in their Numismatic Notes & Monographs series?), or even the collection on all Massachusetts silver by him published by Quarterman. The first I think runs about $50-75 and the second is expensive, generally $200-250. If you don't need anything on the Massachusetts Oak, Willow, or NE coinage only the first is needed, otherwise get the second. I would also recommend Eric Newman's The Secret of the Good Samaritan Shilling, which, in addition to the worthy contribution on the title "coin," also contains additional information of Massachusetts silver coinage in general.

mrearlygold

The old Stacks fixed price lists were also somewhat fun to read.

Coinosaurus

Start with the Crosby reprint, which is available on abebooks.com starting at $25.

Our own Pistareen was working on a guidebook of Colonial Coins, which I don't believe is out yet.

Of course the Redbook has the basic information.

ColonialCoinUnion

Always good to see a colonial coin post -

I have attempted to answer your questions by cobbling togather a variety of articles which have appeared on our site -



<< <i>1) Can you please recommend some good books >>



There are books of all shapes and sizes, both specific and general, technical and airy.

For the purposes of a broad and general overview, we would suggest the Redbook (of course), Sylvester Crosby's ‘Early Coins of America' published in 1875, the colonial section of the Breen Encyclopedia (noting that not all of the information therein is 100% accurate).

Online information is available as well, including Lou Jordan's work on the Notre Dame website and the Coinfacts site assembled by Ron Guth. The Colonial Coin Collectors Club (known as C4) is also an excellent source of information and camaraderie in this field.

Some invaluable information exists also in some of the important colonial auction catalogs of the last 30 years or so and we would recommend several as follows:

1. Stack's series of John Ford Sales (some, but not all of which, are viewable online at the Stack's website).
2. Bower's and Merena's Eliasberg Collection Sale, Part I (which contains a limited offering of superb pieces).
3. Bowers and Merena's series of Norweb Collection sales.
4. Stack's Roper Collection sale.
5. Bowers and Ruddy's series of Garrett Collection sales.

There are also a slew of detailed reference books and catalogs relevant to the study of specific areas of colonial coin collecting. If you have a specific interest in Mass silver, you'll want the following:

Stack's Ford XII sale from october, 2005
Stack's Andrew Hain sale from January, 2001
The Redbook.
The Breen Encyclopedia
The Silver Coins of Massachusetts by Sydney P. Noe



<< <i>2) how best to collect? >>



There are as many ways to collect as there are collectors.

Type collecting has always been popular, and has seen a significant increase in interest over the last five years fueled by the advent of third party grading of colonial coins. Colonials can be challenging, and mysterious, and certification has simplified collecting and exposed it to a broader, more mainstream audience.

Within the definition of type collecting, there are basic type sets encompassing just one coin of each major series, to expansive interpretations that include one of every coin in the Redbook and beyond.

Historically, various colonial issues have also been collected by individual die varieties. The Connecticut and New Jersey series, for example, are comprised of dozens of major types (which are listed in the Redbook), but also by literally hundreds of individually distinctive die varieties (which are not in the Redbook). Such collecting is as popular today as ever, though it tends to be practiced by those collecting raw coins.

To date, the third party grading companies do not attribute slabbed coins by individual die varieties, though with the recent advent of certification of early half dollars by Overton numbers and Morgan Dollars by VAM varieties, we expect it will happen eventually.

And for those who find collecting individual die varieties an insufficient challenge, there are those who take it one step further and seek examples of die states which exhibit the progression of die wear through the striking of hundreds or thousands of coins.



<< <i>3) where are these at right now in the price cycle? Up Mid Down? >>



Prices have risen nearly steadily and in some cases stratospherically since about 2000 on mint state and condition census pieces and on major rarities. Relatively common issues in circulated grades have, in many cases, not increased at all in a decade or so and represent excellent values IMO.



<< <i>4) I don't particularly like to collect too low a grade (unless it has significant eye appeal) so am I in for a tough time? >>



As noted above, coins in XF are relatively affordable and generally available, though finding nice pieces with original surfaces is a challenge.

But when you speak of grade, you should note that condition is but part of the story. Colonial coins exhibit significant vagaries of color, planchet quality, strike and centering, etc. and thus eye-appeal and high grade don't necessarily go hand in hand.

Overall, I'd strongly recommend to read and ask questions (lots of them) before buying anything. Please - don't rush.

Fletcher

<< <i>Please - don't rush. >>



Easier said than done

ColonialCoinUnion

<< <i>

<< <i>Please - don't rush. >>



Easier said than done >>



I agree - but it's worth the effort.

1798CentCollector

I'd echo CCUs comments and suggest that you check out the Colonoal Coin Collectors Club (C4) The club publishes a quarterly newsletter and you may be able to become acquianted with knowledgeable collector - specialists, and dealers. The club also holds a conventinon and auction each November. The EAC style auction catalogs are exclusively devoted to Colonial era coinage and serve as valuable auction pricing, variety attribution and grading guides.

shorecoll

Charlie Davis has a copy of Noe (the Quarterman edition) listed at $275 on Vcoins.com (he's in the ancient section, coins that is, not Charlie). Give him or George Kolbe (numislit.com) a call. Mine's not for sale.

They're probably both still at the show. $275 is steep but you're looking at coins in the $5k+++++ range, so it's cheap. Original Breen's have also been climbing, but the Red Book is still under $20.

SpaceMonkey

Wow! so many suggestions... I am going to start by picking THIS THREAD APART first and them pickup a book or two and get rolling... I am sure I will be asking lot's of opinions before I make my first purchase (or.. at least I hope so! )

thanks very much everyone for the incredible info provided.

/ed

ConstellatioCollector

I wanted to chime in here. I have not been watching the boards lately because of personal reasons, but I have to reply to this topic.

"I would find one or two major dealers who specialize in Colonials and buy from or through them. Like Fletcher, I would whole-heartedly recommend Coin Rarities Online (specifically ColonialCoinUnion, but both John and Dave are great.) In fact, most of the advice I'm giving you comes from my long conversations with CCU and the advice he's given me or from their website."


ColonialCoinUnion is an excellent resource for info. I also want to say that the interactions I have had with him over the past few years have been fantastic. He also offers a more than fair price for your coins!!!!!

ConstellatioCollector

rooksmith

Dont overlook the Vermont Coppers - coinage that helped fund the revolution, and yet - an independent republic : Vermont.


Vermont Coppers an Introduction






www.coinsite.com/content/articles/Confederational.asp US Confederational Coinage