Congrats Barry!
metalmike
Posts: 2,152 ✭✭
Love him or hate him, I am glad he did it at home. The video from Hank shows just how classy he is. Selig still sucks.
USN 1977-1987 * ALL cards are commons unless auto'd. Buying Britneycards. NWO for life.
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/s/ JackWESQ
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
i used to hate bonds with a passion. but after what the media put him through and for him to stay in there and do it. says alot about him. 95% of people would of crumbled under that kinda media pressure.
Mark
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
My hatred is directed at the WHOLE generation of these "ballplayers" Unfortunately I love the game so much that I tune out this crap and root for my team. My hatred is FAR from directed at Barry Bonds alone .......... and I will NEVER be suckered into feeling better for a cheater just becuase he gets pummeled by the media. He DESERVES IT
I SINCERELY hope that 50-100 years from now this entire era of baseball and its *records are mocked and laughed at by a clean league.
I am not alone and I will teach my children about these types of "professional" athletes ....... you can be sure of that.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
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How ironic is it that sayheykid54 has Willie Mays in his avatar? What do you think he would say to your post? Uh, Barry is his godson.
I understand dan... but that above quote right there is the problem. athletes will always and always have found a way to better themselves. and that will never stop. chances at making 20 million a year or even 500 grand a year. some people will try to make it happen with whatever edge they can.
dan i didnt mean no disrespect to you. we have talked alot on these boards and traded cards. so cheers
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
LOL wish i was that rich..
Kevin
<< <i>Congrats Barry, and good show Aaron.
Mark >>
That covers it quite nicely for me, as well.
Collector of Pittsburgh Pirates cards for a slightly less stupid reason.
My Pirates Collection
He gets no congrats from me, he's a GREAT BIG DOPER.
Now excuse me while I burn off a doobie, it helps me surf CU more efficiently.
Congrats Barry, I wish you all the luck in growing your sac back.
Oh, i'm sorry. Were you talking to me? The "I don't care" dept is down the hall and to the left!!
selig does suck, aaron is a class act, but selig should be ashamed of himself and he embarassed his office
collecting RAW Topps baseball cards 1952 Highs to 1972. looking for collector grade (somewhere between psa 4-7 condition). let me know what you have, I'll take it, I want to finish sets, I must have something you can use for trade.
looking for Topps 71-72 hi's-62-53-54-55-59, I have these sets started
The Press, Selig, Schilling, those great Philly fans, etc etc. Noone bothers Barry because they (we) don't exist.
nar·cis·sism –noun
1. inordinate fascination with oneself; excessive self-love; vanity.
2. Psychoanalysis. erotic gratification derived from admiration of one's own physical or mental attributes, being a normal condition at the infantile level of personality development.
The most depressing aspect of this whole sordid affair is the number of people that support Bonds. This in turn encourages MLB to give only a half-hearted effort at catching drug cheats. In the end, MLB is concerned only about filling their coffers. If PED-soaked goons "jacking" homers on ESPN draws high ratings, then so be it say the MLB pooh-bahs. The end result will be that eventually a ballplayer's chemist will have as much to do with potential success as his natural ability.
The fact is, he's a fraud, the record is a fraud, and everyone knows it. Yes, he is the all time HR leader, but he is not the all time HR King. That crown belongs to Mr. Aaron.
Rick Reilly said it best: "Just because a thief paints over a masterpiece doesn't mean the masterpiece isn't still underneath."
755 forever.
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
Sweet Morsels Toffee and Chocolates
That being said, however, I wonder how many more home runs Barry would still have to hit if Hank had been on the juice as well.
Here's some food for thought. There will come a time, probably within the next few years, when a legitimate supplement will be formulated that will have the same effect as HGH and steroids. By legitimate I mean something that is made from natural ingredients and not in any way related to hormones or steroids. This is going to happen. There is a lot of research in this field currently with a huge payoff for the company who commercializes the product. The demand for such a product is overwhelming given the demands on professional athletes, the grueling schedule and the potential payoff for superior performance.
So, the HR record will eventually be the by product of some new supplement and a yet to be determined great hitter but without the banned substances.
Will that HR record be any less "tainted" than what many people believe Bond's record is?
Seeking primarily PSA graded pre-war "type" cards
My PSA Registry Sets
34 Goudey, 75 Topps Mini, Hall of Fame Complete Set, 1985 Topps Tiffany, Hall of Fame Players Complete Set
* Congrats to Barry even though I view the record as a fraud
* Taking steroids does improve the ability to hit the ball. Bat speed is a big part of being successful at the major league level. A quicker bat speed allows that additional split second to read the pitch. Taking steroids improves bat speed. It wouldn't make me a HR king but it would turn a marginal player into a ML calibre player, a ML calibre player into a star and a star player into a superstar.
* Just because others cheated, it doesn't absolve a particular cheater. This whole era will be looked upon with skepticism. AROD is the next potential HR king. Many thought he was clean but Canseco's about to unload the goods on him in his next book. Say what you will about Jose but many of his past accusations have turned out to be true.
* If they invent some magic drug that doesn't have harmful side effects, then it would be legal. I'd view it in the same way as food and protein suppliments. Every player should take them in that case. The key word here though is "legal". Steroids are illegal (except for treatment of specific ailments) for a reason; they damage the body. I have my doubts about whether a benign steroid alternative can be invented.
Now go buy up those Bonds RCs so I can unload mine.
Kuhn felt Aaron wasn't worthy to break Ruth's HR record, and wasn't present when the record was broken.
Selig felt Bonds wasn't wortht to break Aaron's HR record, and wasn't present when the record was broken.
Both men allowed their personal feelings to incringe on what should have been a celebration of a once-a-generation happening.
Finally, Selig allowed the greed of his fellow owners to both get the world series cancelled, and to look the other way when players started hitting home runs in bunches that brought baseball back from the ledge. Bonds simply played in a new era of baseball...played on a field when most other players were using the same substances he used.
<< <i>I can't get excited to see this guy break any records sorry and hate to see people cheering someone who almost certainly cheated throughout his career. >>
Sports fans are obviously a very forgiving bunch.
Steroid do not help you hit homeruns, what steroids do is help you recover from injuries faster. Bonds likely hit an extra 50-100 homeruns due to time off he would have had to take without the benifits of steroids.
Hitting a baseball is not much different then hitting a golf ball. Doing steroids would not make you hit the golf ball further either. The bat, and the golf club, snaps, while it hits the ball if swung correctly. This is why metal bats are so bad. They snap harder and reflect the ball faster.
"If they invent some magic drug that doesn't have harmful side effects, then it would be legal. I'd view it in the same way as food and protein suppliments. Every player should take them in that case. The key word here though is "legal". Steroids are illegal (except for treatment of specific ailments) for a reason; they damage the body. I have my doubts about whether a benign steroid alternative can be invented."
Then how do you feel about McGwire, who is accused of using a drug that was not illegal at the time he was using it. Should every player have been taking them?
What about Mantle and almost every HOF'er from that time period taking Greenies and the like? These were harmful to the body.
Suppliments and the like are not new and are older then the sport. It is hard for me to lay blame on Bonds because modern medicine is better.
Another thought. In Mantles "The Mick" book, or perhaps in the video version, Mantle is talking about how a pitcher gives him a free homerun. Should we take back one homerun from Mantle and then witchhunt the other HOF'ers? Perhaps take about a dozen wins from Gaylord Perry?
Recently on Jimmy Kimbell (msp) Foreman was talking about how he and other boxers use to drug their rivals before a match. Should we put astericks besides every boxing record?
What I am saying, and you can accept this or not, is that drugs have been part of ALL sports as long as sports have been.
Mark
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
"Steroid do not help you hit homeruns, what steroids do is help you recover from injuries faster. Bonds likely hit an extra 50-100 homeruns due to time off he would have had to take without the benifits of steroids.
Hitting a baseball is not much different then hitting a golf ball. Doing steroids would not make you hit the golf ball further either. The bat, and the golf club, snaps, while it hits the ball if swung correctly. This is why metal bats are so bad. The snap harder and reflect the ball faster."
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Wow, what a comment. I guess there are other explanations for Bonds's batting average going through the roof after he turned 35. The guy was a .290 hitter then all of a sudden starting hitting over .350. Must have been the flaxseed oil.
Then there is the inane commentary about equating steroids to "modern medicine." This medicine did wonders for Tyler Hooton, the young lad from Texas who ingested so much of the stuff that it eventually caused him to off himself.
But wait, there's more. "Drugs have been part of sport as long as sports have been." This is kind of like saying people have been murdering others since the beginning of time, therefore, murder must be ok. I don't think anyone disputes the presence of illegal drugs in sports.....but people do know the difference between Ben Johnson and Carl Lewis.
The best of all is the most often heard from the Bonds apologists: eventually there will be a legal supplement that will help someone hit a gazillion homers. The operative word is LEGAL. If it is tested, approved, and legitimized by the government, the fans, and the sport, then of course any record setting thereafter will be perceived as legitimate. The fact we're having this debate about steroids (and HGH) is an indication that there is no such legitimacy here.
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
"The best of all is the most often heard from the Bonds apologists: eventually there will be a legal supplement that will help someone hit a gazillion homers. The operative word is LEGAL. If it is tested, approved, and legitimized by the government, the fans, and the sport, then of course any record setting thereafter will be perceived as legitimate"
So if steroids or something similar become LEGAL then anyone thereafter that breaks records using it will be OK? Even though Aaron never had an opportunity to use them? How can it be legitimate? or Fair?
Hitting a baseball is not much different then hitting a golf ball. Doing steroids would not make you hit the golf ball further either. The bat, and the golf club, snaps, while it hits the ball if swung correctly. This is why metal bats are so bad. They snap harder and reflect the ball faster."
Though I agree they help to recover from injuries faster, I disagree that it doesn't help to hit HRs. Bonds has a bodybuilder physique since he allegedly started taking steroids and HGH's. The 73HR season wasn't solely a result of him staying healthy. I believe the increased bat speed steroids and HGH offer, gives an added advantage to the hitter. Having said that, I'm not an expert in the medical field and have not studied steroids or HGH. However, I did play ball up to the semipro level and my coaches always stressed the importance of weight training to build strength to increase bat speed.
"Then how do you feel about McGwire, who is accused of using a drug that was not illegal at the time he was using it. Should every player have been taking them?"
This was a loophole in the system. I think the drug should have been illegal and no, other players should not have taken them. As for McGwire, he's in the same boat as Bonds. I don't consider his accomplishments in the same way as the pre steroid era players.
"What about Mantle and almost every HOF'er from that time period taking Greenies and the like? These were harmful to the body.
Suppliments and the like are not new and are older then the sport. It is hard for me to lay blame on Bonds because modern medicine is better."
I'd consider greenies in the same vein as cocaine. If caught taking them, a player should be suspended. However, I don't think they would substantially help a player cheat like steroids do. It's a bit of a grey area. Taken to the extreme, you can say caffeine would help a player by keeping him awake. However, the effect on the outcome of games is nowhere near to someone bulking up to herculean levels like steroids and HGH.
"Another thought. In Mantles "The Mick" book, or perhaps in the video version, Mantle is talking about how a pitcher gives him a free homerun. Should we take back one homerun from Mantle and then witchhunt the other HOF'ers? Perhaps take about a dozen wins from Gaylord Perry? "
You're extrapolating a rare exception to someone cheating every game for years. That's like saying the store owner gave me a coke the other day, so I'm entitled to steal the entire contents of the store. As for Perry, that's a judgement call. Kinda like throwing a spitter. People can choose to accept his accomplishments or not. Personally I don't view him on the same level as other pitchers in his era.
"Recently on Jimmy Kimbell (msp) Foreman was talking about how he and other boxers use to drug their rivals before a match. Should we put astericks besides every boxing record?"
Boxing is a tainted sport and pretty much always has been. It's unfortunate that baseball is actually being compared to boxing in terms of integrity.
"What I am saying, and you can accept this or not, is that drugs have been part of ALL sports as long as sports have been."
This is true. Just like gambling has probably been at least a minor problem in all sports. However, if a game is ever proved to be fixed like the '19 world series, the results should be seen as fraudulant.
In fact, allegedly Bonds started taking steroids and HGH because he was PO'd by all the press McGwire and Sosa got through cheating and felt he could be better if playing on a level playing field. He proved that to be true but he also unfortunately turned a legitimate 500HR career into an ilegitimate 750+HR career.
I will do you the favor of not adding words to your comments if you do the same to me. No where did I say it was ok. If you have read my postings I think it is very wrong.
How I see it is simple, the problem is not Bonds as many here seem to believe, the problem is baseball and sports in general. Drugs did not enter sports overnight, which is why the steroid period is pretty much impossible to define. Drugs just got better. Blame in my opinion goes to the owners and commissioner that turned a blind eye. Does anyone really think that no one knew what was going on?
Sports...again this is not just a baseball things...do need to clean up or they will lose fans, and therefore money, and more so, because it is the right thing to do.
I am not pro-Bonds or pro-steriods. However, when a pot boils over I am not going to blame the water that runs over the side. The water inside the pot is just as much to blame, and the person that put the pot on the burner is the most to blame. The later in my opinion is the owners and commissioner. The ones that had the power to stop it but chose not to.
Mark
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
You raise some good points about legalizing steroids, and I agree with you to some extent. But if baseball (or other sports) want to legalize this stuff and bring it under the rules of the game, that's their prerogative. Of course, it would turn baseball into professional wrestling but it's their decision whether to make a mockery of the game. To some extent they already have. My point was simply to illustrate that Bonds apologists are fond of implying that eventually much of this stuff might be legalized under the law and in baseball anyway, so somewhere down the road his record might not be viewed as tainted. That is false. Using illegal or banned substances at the time taints the accomplishment. It's like saying robbery will be legalized 20 years from now, so knocking off a convenience store today won't stain your reputation in 2027.
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
<< <i>"But wait, there's more. "Drugs have been part of sport as long as sports have been." This is kind of like saying people have been murdering others since the beginning of time, therefore, murder must be ok."
I will do you the favor of not adding words to your comments if you do the same to me. No where did I say it was ok. If you have read my postings I think it is very wrong.
How I see it is simple, the problem is not Bonds as many here seem to believe, the problem is baseball and sports in general. Drugs did not enter sports overnight, which is why the steroid period is pretty much impossible to define. Drugs just got better. Blame in my opinion goes to the owners and commissioner that turned a blind eye. Does anyone really think that no one knew what was going on?
Sports...again this is not just a baseball things...do need to clean up or they will lose fans, and therefore money, and more so, because it is the right thing to do.
I am not pro-Bonds or pro-steriods. However, when a pot boils over I am not going to blame the water that runs over the side. The water inside the pot is just as much to blame, and the person that put the pot on the burner is the most to blame. The later in my opinion is the owners and commissioner. The ones that had the power to stop it but chose not to.
Mark >>
On this we can agree. Baseball and its ownership is to blame for turning a blind eye. However, that doesn't legitimize the "accomplishments" of the players who decided to partake in the cheating. The only reason Bonds is being singled out is because he broke a hallowed record as a result of cheating that occurred with the complicity of ownership. Well, that and his surly personality. The fact that many cheated or that baseball ownership allowed it to happen doesn't legitimize players' accomplishments.
<< <i>Perkdog -
You raise some good points about legalizing steroids, and I agree with you to some extent. But if baseball (or other sports) want to legalize this stuff and bring it under the rules of the game, that's their prerogative. Of course, it would turn baseball into professional wrestling but it's their decision whether to make a mockery of the game. To some extent they already have. My point was simply to illustrate that Bonds apologists are fond of implying that eventually much of this stuff might be legalized under the law and in baseball anyway, so somewhere down the road his record might not be viewed as tainted. That is false. Using illegal or banned substances at the time taints the accomplishment. It's like saying robbery will be legalized 20 years from now, so knocking off a convenience store today won't stain your reputation in 2027.
Ron >>
I see your points.
For all the Yankee fans, be prepared to defend Arod as the accusations start to fly in his direction.
Collecting all cards - Gus Zernial
Post Cereal both raw and PSA Graded (1961-1963)
<< <i>Congrats to Bonds. It was a great night for baseball. 33 years from now, just like Aaron, I figure most sports fans will have forgotten about all this controversy. Whatever controversy the media decides to feed us, that will most likely trump whatever you all think Bonds did. Records are meant to be broken, it is was keeps the dream alive for many a young player.
For all the Yankee fans, be prepared to defend Arod as the accusations start to fly in his direction. >>
I don't agree. Aaron's controversy was a racial issue of the day. I'd liken today's controversy as being more similar to the Black Sox tainted series. It's still viewed as an invalid series in the eyes of fans who study that era. Unless society accepts doping as the norm at some point in the future, I don't see fans forgetting that this era had a certain percentage of the players cheating to achieve these records.
<< <i> I don't see fans forgetting that this era had a certain percentage of the players cheating to achieve these records. >>
I would have to agree with that statement to some degree. Today, the hatred for Bonds runs very deep, he has never been a friend of the media and has had his share of bad times with fans. I agree the steriod era will not be forgotten, however, the personality of Bonds will change with age and so will peoples memories.
Collecting all cards - Gus Zernial
Post Cereal both raw and PSA Graded (1961-1963)
<< <i>
<< <i> I don't see fans forgetting that this era had a certain percentage of the players cheating to achieve these records. >>
I would have to agree with that statement to some degree. Today, the hatred for Bonds runs very deep, he has never been a friend of the media and has had his share of bad times with fans. I agree the steriod era will not be forgotten, however, the personality of Bonds will change with age and so will peoples memories. >>
To an extent I agree. I think Bonds will be remembered like Ty Cobb in terms of personality. People will know he was an a*s but will not hold that against him as far as accomplishments are concerned. However, I don't think they will forgive the steroid era players like McGwire, Bonds, Canseco and others. I think their stats will always carry a virtual asterisk.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.