1783 8R Mo FF, Shipwreck or Not?

Ljr1964

Hi. I bought this coin on Ebay several months ago, as it looked in great shape. It weighs 26 grams as it's supposed to and I don't doubt it's real. I self slabbed it and graded it at EF45, with a 30 day money back guarantee. There is NO indication of environmental damage, and that is what is concerning me. I thought ALL 1783 8R Mo, FF coins were on the El Cazador, but this coin makes me question that. I don't want to misrepresent it. Any HELPFUL advice is appreciated. Thanks.

Link to Ebay auction

newbiecollector

Good Goshhhhhhhh

Run Forest Run

TwoKopeiki

This doesn't look to be a shipwreck coin, since it's not displaying any surface corrosion, usually associated with long-term water exposure. Also, it's far from UNC detail (would grade the obv at VF, rev at low-end XF, myself). I don't know how many 1783 Mo FF were on El Cazador (I believe it was only 450,000 pesos of silver Reales total, which included previous years, as well), but it wasn't nowhere near the entire production for that year.

The low weight might be due to planchet damage, but I don't like that one "jumpy" dentil on the reverse under between N and D in IND (but could be a single re-cut dentil, I guess). Other than that, it at least has a high probability of being authentic.

Here's an example of the Cazador salvage, notice the corrosion on the obverse (10-12 o'clock)

courtesy of coinarchives.com

TwoKopeiki

I looked-up mintage figures for 1783 - 20,105,799.12 pesos of silver. An 8 Reales coin is equals to 1 peso of silver.

GDJMSP

<< <i>An 8 Reales coin is equals to 1 peso of silver. >>



A common misconception. The peso was a unit of measurement that referred to gold. And while the total value of silver minted was listed in pesos , that was so they could estimate it's value in gold. To get a conversion you have to break it down into maravedies. One peso of gold equaled 450 maravedies - each maravedi equaled 1/34th of a silver reale. So when you do the math 450 maravedies devided by 34 = 13.23 reales. So 1 peso equaled roughly 13 1/4 reales.

TwoKopeiki

GDJMSP, check-out this article from "Mexican Coin Magic" linky:



<< <i>The Spanish Crown kept track of mintage figures by weight not denomination, which was normally the case in the United States mints. This early accounting weight, another carryover from Colonial accounting practices, was used by the Mexican Republic and called a Peso and represented approximately one ounce of silver. Historically the value ratio between silver and gold had been 16 parts (ounces) of silver to 1 part (ounce) of gold or a 16:1 ratio.

Thus the early Republican Mints’ accounting practices used mintage reports that were stated in Silver Pesos, no matter if they were copper, silver or gold. This is sometimes confusing for the beginning collector of Mexican coins, but it is rather simple once you understand that it took 16 Pesos of gold to make one 8 Escudos, 8 Pesos of gold to make one 4 Escudos and so on down to 1 Peso of silver to make a tiny ½ Escudo. However, it took only 1 Peso of silver to make one 8 Reales or ½ of a Peso of silver to make one 4 Reales and so on. >>

GDJMSP

And they are certainly not the first to have printed that. However, if you do the research you will find that what I have written above is accurate. Peso was a unit used to measure value in gold. So when the Spanish mentioned a peso of silver they were talking about enough silver in weight to equal the value of 1 peso of gold, the peso de oro. And since the maravedi was the basic monetary unit everything had to equal out which it does if you follow the formula I provided.

Quite simply, I am saying the are wrong.

TwoKopeiki

You are right, as long as you specify if you're talking about Peso de Oro or Peso de Ocho. For accounting purposes, Peso de Oro was 450 maravedis and Peso de Ocho was 272 maravedis. One Peso de Oro = 1.6544 Peso de Ocho.

However, Peso de Oro measure fluctuated throughout the years:

1580-1612 it was equal to 556 maravedis (2.0441 Pesos del Ocho)
1613-1642 it was 576 maravedis (2.1177 Pesos del Ocho)
1643-1688 it was 680 maravedis (2.5)
1689-1724 it was 850 maravedis
1724-1800 it was approx. 840 maravedis, or 3.085 Pesos del Ocho

The value of gold peso varied greatly in different regions, as well.

A good reference for this would be "The Royal Treasuries of the Spanish Empire in America" by John Jay TePaske, Herbert S. Klein, Kendall W. Brown, Alvaro Jara.

lordmarcovan

Compared to the "El Cazador" piece I bought this spring, that one looks pretty nice.



I dunno if I believe the pedigree or not.