1911 TUKEY RED SUB POP, ebay seller submitted my card and came back trimmed/sold raw NOW BUSTED!! PL

RipublicaninMass

1 04753107 1911 T3 TURKEY RED 2 BILL BERGEN CABINETS-CHECKLIST BACK 2
2 04753108 1911 T3 TURKEY RED 10 ART DEVLIN CABINETS-CHECKLIST BACK 1
3 04753109 1911 T3 TURKEY RED 21 RED KLEINOW CABINETS-CHECKLIST BACK 1
4 04753110 1911 T3 TURKEY RED 33 JAKE PFEISTER CABINETS-CHECKLIST BACK 1
5 04753111 1911 T3 TURKEY RED 33 JAKE PFEISTER CABINETS-CHECKLIST BACK 2MK
6 04753112 1911 T3 TURKEY RED 38 JAKE STAHL CABINETS-CHECKLIST BACK 1
7 04753113 1911 T3 TURKEY RED 49 A CLOSE PLAY AT 2ND CABINETS-CHECKLIST BACK 1
8 04753114 1911 T3 TURKEY RED 49 A CLOSE PLAY AT 2ND CABINETS-CHECKLIST BACK 1MK
9 04753115 1911 T9 TURKEY RED 51 JEM DRISCOLL CABINETS-CHECKLIST BACK 2
10 04753116 1911 T9 TURKEY RED 75 JACK O'BRIEN CABINETS-CHECKLIST BACK 1
11 04753117 1911 T3 TURKEY RED RED AMES CABINETS-TURKEY RED BACK N0
12 04753118 1911 T3 TURKEY RED 83 AL BRIDWELL CABINETS-CHECKLIST BACK 1MK
13 04753119 1911 T3 TURKEY RED 102 JOHNNY KLING CABINETS-CHECKLIST BACK 1
14 04753120 1911 T3 TURKEY RED 103 ED KONETCHY CABINETS-CHECKLIST BACK N0
Date Received: 07/23/2007
Date of Grades Posted: 07/25/2007
Date Shipped: No Date Specified


ONLY 2 trimmed made me happy

RipublicaninMass

I cant complain about ANY sub for at LEAST 6 months...thanks PSA

Now to contact the sellers of the trimmed cards, I did emial sportscom last week explaining the cards was trimmed, now I feel I SHOULD be able to keep the card and get a portion of my $$ back. Still trying to contact sunsurfsand, but ebay MIGHT thinks it is spam. I got some "attention" email from them.

Red Ames was purchased from sportscom- Yet to leave me feedback, I did email because I THOUGHT the card might be trimmed his response was
"I don't thik so. They were purchased about 25 years ago from a very reputable dealer. I don't think anyone would bother to trim cards with pinholes and other problems. What would be the purpose?"

ED Kontechy was purchased from sunsurfandsand - already left me a positive, I was withholding until grades were posted

baseballfanatic

Were 2 trimmed or did PSA grade them as "authentic"?

stown

RipublicaninMass

ok I heard back from "sunsurfsand" I really WASNT expecting this!



"Hi Ted;

That's unbelievable and I'm sorry to hear that! I even had one interest buyer during the auction ask me what it measured and when I measured that Konetchy T3. It measured exactly what the SCD Standard Catalog of Baseball Cards gives as the size of the T3 cards.

Just curious. Did you send it to PSA, SGC, or GAI? I would trust, if GAI or SGC said it had been trimmed, but not PSA. I don't trust PSA, nor do I think that some of their graders have the expertise to tell whether a card has been trimmed or not and here's why.

About 5-6 yrs ago, I had bought an ungraded 1915 Cracker Jack card from Sportscardsplus who had purchased a complete ungraded set from some elderly gentleman whom had put the complete set together over many years. If, you're not familiar with Sportscardsplus. They're probably the largest dealer of vintage sports cards in the industry and you'll see their ads (SCP) on the back cover of every monthly SMR publication.

After, I had purchased one of those Cracker Jack cards from that set. I sent it to PSA and it came back as being trimmed. I took the card down to SPC which is about a 20 min drive from my house and showed it to Jim who is Dave Kotler's, Pres. of SCP, right hand man. Jim saw the PSA "trimmed" sticker on the still ungraded card and said that was bs, because they knew in fact that none of the cards in that set had never been altered in any way. He took that Cracker Jack card and said that he was going to send it to Mike Baker at GAI whom he said would definitely know whether or not it had been trimmed. Apparently and I've since heard this from other knowledgeable people in the busies. Mike Baker is the industries most knowledgeable and highly regarded expert when it comes to vintage baseball cards. He was the #1 top, senior grader at PSA for many years before leaving with Steve Roche, ex-Pres.of PSA, to start up GAI.

Well about 2 weeks later after leaving that Cracker Jack card with Sportscardplus; I got a call from Jim at SCP letting me know that he had gotten the card back from Mike Baker at GAI and it had been graded as it should have been by PSA. I wasn't happy with the grade, but at least it hadn't been trimmed like PSA had said.

Besides that experience and the fact that the Konetchy T3 measured to be exactly the correct size that a T3 is supposed to be for which I don't trust PSA saying it was trimmed, there is one other reason why I don't.

Last year, I ran into a guy who had been a senior grader at PSA, also, before leaving and getting out of the sports cards & memorabilia industry all together. I was telling him about that experience with PSA on that Cracker Jack card and he told me that PSA will purposely downgrade cards, because they know that some of those cards will get submitted a second time by the owner of it.

It makes perfect sense as to why PSA would do something like this, because their revenue is almost entirely dependent upon grading submissions and they depend upon their membership for those cards & coin grading submissions. If submissions from the membership is slow one month and PSA's execs are concerned that the company may not make its planned revenue for the qtr which the stock holders & Wall Street except. Then offering grading specials like this month's 5-day, $13 per card special offer and purposely down grading some cards or possibly saying some cards are trimmed and knowing that some of those cards will get resubmitted, is how they can generate more submissions from that set number of PSA members.

This is just one more reason why I don't trust PSA and their quality of grading cards, especially when it comes to the high valued vintage cards versus that of the modern day type cards.

I'm very sorry to hear that the Konetchy T3 came back as being trimmed, because I know that it isn't cheap to have these cards graded. I know, because I had sent PSA 4 T3s to be graded when I made the decision to start selling my card collection on eBay. The only reason that I didn't send the Kontchey card to be graded, was it didn't make economical sense to spend $55 to have it be graded a PSA-1 due to that bad stained and surface paper damage at the bottom of the card on both sides. I figured that ungraded that I'd probably get around $150 and graded a PSA-1, around $200 to $225. But, after you got it for around $80. Then, I was kicking myself for not having it graded with the other 4 T3 which I did send to PSA for grading which by the way PSA graded each of those 4s.

I don't know, if it would be worth it and that naturally would be for you to decide.. But, you might want to consider sending it to GAI or SGC. Because, I can't believe that a card could be trimmed that measures the exactly the correct size which it is supposed to be and for those reasons which I've talked about above, regarding PSA. That is, if it was PSA who you sent it to for grading.

I'm sorry for the unfortunate outcome on your Konetchy T3, but I sold it just exactly as it was when I had bought it many years ago and before PSA, SGC, or GAI ever started grading these T3s.

Ted; are you going to just keep it, sell it, or maybe send it to another company to be graded?"


Did he just cut and paste this?

RipublicaninMass

anyone help???

fergie23

I'd have to say that he has a point about the dreaded "evidence of trimming". This has started happening more often to my submissions. I grade only cards that I pulled directly from unopened material so the "trimming" claim is complete nonsense. I have a handful of cards that psa claimed were trimmed (all of which I personally pulled from material purchased from BBCX over the last 18 months) that I am planning on resubmitting during the next $5 special. Will be an interesting experiment.

I don't know about the lower grade scenario. If a card doesn't grade out like I thought it should I just sell it on ebay and move on. I think with the new move to claiming trimmed on cards I would be more worried about cracking a 70s or 80s PSA 8 rookie card and then having it come back as trimmed. It seems that most serious submitters here resubmit cards fairly often.

RipublicaninMass

Ferg I definately understand your point. But these are not 5$ in grading fees, they are 55$ each. I couldn't just list it on ebay, since I would now HAVE to put rejected by PSA.

baseballfanatic

I still say that the N0 are probably in an "authentic" holder, unless you have them in hand....

RipublicaninMass

<< <i>I still say that the N0 are probably in an "authentic" holder, unless you have them in hand.... >>



not in hand yet, but they are holdered.

I heard back from sportscom on the Red Ames

"I really feel bad about the card being graded that way. I certainly had no inclination that that would be the case. With the condition of the card, who would bother trimming it. It must have happened many years ago. My customer has had the card for at least 25 yrs. It was a consigned sale. I have sold about 300 of his cards and this one was the only problem card. I don't know if I guaranteed the card or not. Normally, it is up to the buyer whether to chance it being graded properly. I'm sure I have sold cards that were graded and resold for a profit. "


What do i do neg these seller's? I think I might ask for a partial refund, since I am out 55 bucks for the grading. Input appreciated!

Griffins

I've had cards returned "evid of trim" on many occasions before that I knew weren't trimmed, and they all graded the 2nd time thru. Really ticked me off, and I think the fees from the first round should be refunded, but it will never happen. It's all a subjective opinion.
That being said, if a card truly is trimmed or recolored or otherwise ungradeable I think the seller should stand behind it, assuming too much time hasn't passed. I like Wayne Varner's (of Shoebox Cards) position on this. He told me they would never gaurantee a particular grade, but they would always guarantee that a card would grade. That seems fair enough.
I'd tend to neg on this, or at least a neutral. It's also why I don't see raw on ebay- I either get it graded or just give the cards away.

Also, I'd never ask for a partial refund- to me that is like renegotiating a sale after the fact. Either you don't want it and get a full refund (minus grading fees, which was your choice to send in) or you keep it for the sale price. You can't have it both ways.

stown

Ted,

I call BS on "sunsurfsand". He bashes PSA over and over and over only to admit he submits to PSA. His story looks like a cut and paste job, so this probably isn't the first time he's had issues.

Because of the circumstances, I'm almost willing to bet the card was submitted but rejected for trimming.

Demand a full refund on your purchase price and don't buy raw from this seller going forward.

/ $0.02

Ladder7

That's a terrific coillection!

ArnyVee

These T3s are beautiful cards.

Anyone have a full historical/informational article on these cards? Was it just baseball and boxing cards issued?

MuckyMutt

<< <i>I've had cards returned "evid of trim" on many occasions before that I knew weren't trimmed, and they all graded the 2nd time thru. >>



I agree. If you wanted a card that was authentic and untrimmed, you should have bought a card that was already holdered. It seems to me that "evidence of trimming" is just an opinion, not a fact. I would not be bothering the sellers. You take your chances when you buy raw.

RipublicaninMass

<< <i>

<< <i>I've had cards returned "evid of trim" on many occasions before that I knew weren't trimmed, and they all graded the 2nd time thru. >>



I agree. If you wanted a card that was authentic and untrimmed, you should have bought a card that was already holdered. It seems to me that "evidence of trimming" is just an opinion, not a fact. I would not be bothering the sellers. You take your chances when you buy raw. >>



I understand, but when I received the Ames, I thought it was a bit short and emailed the seller. He told me ""I don't thik so. They were purchased about 25 years ago from a very reputable dealer. I don't think anyone would bother to trim cards with pinholes and other problems. What would be the purpose?" I dont see this going through a second time. Also, I have NEVER had a seller refuse to give a refund on a card that was trimmed.

RipublicaninMass

So the seller lists a graded T3 and I check the cert number directly after it


According to the PSA Certification Database, certification number 04592547 is defined as the following:

ITEM INFORMATION
Year: 1911
Brand: T3 TURKEY RED
Player: ED KONETCHY
Variety: CABINETS-CHECKLIST BACK
Grade: Not Holdered, Altered


The card he sold me "he is surprised and doesn't trust PSA"

rube26105

they have done that with my 50 bowman football cards ive sent in raw, im not buying any more raw, if it aint graded, i aint buying it lol, that way,no surprize for me-the t-3,s and older cards , that would be harder to do as they are alot more expensive!
the rube

Ahmanfan

I'd be pretty livid after all that BS he gave you, and now seeing he had gotten the card back evid of trimming before.

jimq112

Doesn't the guy understand that sometimes vintage cards start out oversize, and a dishonest seller could clean up the edges and corners, and still not make it undersized?

I would send the neg and if it's not too late I would file a significantly not as described with either paypal or ebay.

msassin

<< <i>I'd be pretty livid after all that BS he gave you, and now seeing he had gotten the card back evid of trimming before. >>



Agree. Have you confronted him about the fact that he sent it in himself?

RipublicaninMass

yes I sent him an email saying "some of my friends over at PSA( )informed me that YOU had sent that card in and it was rejected. What can you possibly say for yourself? this is ridiculous, etc"

handyman

Your card may be mis cut. I have a t9 that is to big LR and to small TB, its not trimmed its just a funny cut.
Post pics of the cards.

RipublicaninMass

Ted,

I sincerely want to apologize for my mistake in not being completely up
front about this ungraded card. I was wrong and I'm truly grateful that you
called me out on this matter, because it truthfully has been on my
conscience since you bought the card several months ago.

Whether you believe this or not, doesn't really matter. What matters; is
for me to personally learn from this mistake in a good way that I will never
try to deceive anyone ever again in any kind circumstance and to make
satisfactory restitution to you.

I'm not like the kind of person whom you now believe me to be and again,
that's why I'm actually glad you looked into this and called me out on the
table about it. Because my whole life; I've always been a forth right, up
front, very honest and open, tell it like it is, type of person.

I feel really bad and sorry for what I have done and will never do something
like this ever again. Ironically; I found myself, trying ease my conscience
and rationalize my wrong doing by using the numerous times that I got
burned on ungraded cards early on in collecting years, as some kind of justification.
As the saying goes; "two wrongs don't make it right" and there is no justification for doing something to someone for what others may have done to you, nor does it make you feel any better, if you do.

I have to say, though. It's odd that PSA would first say this card had been
"altered" and now a second time say that it has been "trimmed". Please
believe me when I tell you this. Back then; if PSA had sent this T3 back to me, saying that it had been "trimmed". I would have never listed or sold this T3 card and would have just kept it, put it in a picture frame, and displayed it in my home office.

But, when it came back as "altered". The only thing on this card that I
could see as to what PSA would have been referring to as possibly having been
"altered". It would've had to do with that damaged area at the
bottom of this T3 Konetchy card and I really had my doubts about how assured the PSA grader could have been of that. Because, the only reason why someone would alter this card, would be to make it look better then it actually is. It didn't make any sense for someone to even attempt doing that to the damaged area on it, because it was beyond being able to make it look better without having it obviously look altered in some way as an attempt to improve the visual appearance of this card's condition. And, if someone didn't care about it obviously looking like it had been altered. They certainly would have done a better job of altering it, like maybe using a gray felt pen to blend in the damaged area with the rest of the border.

So I figured, if the winning bidder were to send this T3 card to PSA for grading. There was a very good chance that it would come back graded a PSA-1 the second time around and not again as being "altered". Thus; I took the gamble of not saying anything about having sent it to PSA & getting it back as an "altered" card. Hoping even with that damaged area on it; I would still get close to what I had paid for it and figuring, the buyer is going to end up with a very nice looking ungraded, authentic T3 to add to his other collection of ungraded cards or very possibly end up with a high end PSA-1 graded T3.

However; had I got back from PSA this Konetchy T3 as being a "trimmed" card. The odds were that it would more likely come back as being "trimmed" again; if the winning bidder were to send it to PSA for grading. I would have never gambled with poor odds like that and listed this card without saying that PSA had determined it to be "trimmed". Because, chances are that I would've end up paying for that buyer's PSA grading fees in addition to refunding the buyer his money and end up costing me even more for the card then what I had originally paid for it. That is not a gamble that I would have been willing to take and again, would have instead just kept this T3 card to pass onto my kids someday.

And apparently; I was partially correct in my assumption that there was a good chance that this T3 Konetchy card hadn't been "altered" and you would have got it back graded a PSA-1; if it hadn't been determined as a "trimmed" card which PSA now says it is and wasn't, when I sent it to them for grading the first time.

If, PSA had returned this T3 card to you as being an "altered" card. Then, I would definitely feel that it would warrant and I should reimburse you or any winning bidder, the $55 PSA grading fee. But, since that was not the case and PSA did not grade your T3 Konetchy for the reason of it being "altered", but for a totally different reason, "trimmed", which I had no knowledge of, at the time of selling this card. I feel that reimbursing you half or $30 of the PSA grading service fee for a T3 card, would be fair and I hope that you will agree.

I have already made this $30 payment to your Paypal account and if, you don't want the Konetchy card. I will also refund to you the amount of your winning bid, in return for this apparently now, "trimmed" T3 card.

Again Ted; I am truly sorry for my mistake, not being completely up-front about this T3 card, and also for the time which it has caused you to spend on this matter. I should have never gambled and figured the odds were good that this T3 card would get graded the next time submitted to PSA. My past experiences with PSA's quality of grading cards has shown me as such. I hope that you feel my offer is satisfactory compensation to you and please let me know; if you want to return the card for a refund. If, you would like to talk about this on the telephone. My phone number is


WOW

Stone193

Hi Ted

This is interesting - since I collect T3s, I can totally relate to this.

Now - IMO if the guy is truly contrite about what he did - he should have just asked you to return the card and given you a complete refund to include the grading fee since he knew "something" was wrong with the card and he ebayed it without disclosing anything. Now that's just my opinion.

I did a lot worse - this is my first T3 - I paid 800$ for it in 1992 - that was a lot of money back then - it came back from PSA as evid of trimm. and on close examination - it appears to be trimmed on 3 sides! And it is slightly short - I didn't bother to measure it back then - I wasn't affraid of alterations back then - also since I bought it from Greg from the old Superior - I had immense trust in them. I only found out about this about 2 yrs ago - so going back to them about it would be kind of silly.



Sorry to hear about this - good luck in future T3 pickups!

mike

scooter729

Wow Ted, what a lengthy and thought-out response. Too bad he hadn't thought that much about it before. It's good to see a seller who puts that sort of thought into things, and not just a one word reply with poor grammar.

I do believe him when he says he wouldn't try something like this again without full disclosure up front. I would feel comfortable buying from a seller like this in the future.

scooter729

With all this talk of trimmed T-3's I just went scouring to measure my two framed ones. Beat up and tattered with pinholes though they may be, at least they seem to measure up properly!

RipublicaninMass

Thanks for the responses, he did send me 30 bucks. The funny part is that he said he would have refunded the whole thing if it came back altered. Is trimmed/altered the same thing? it is in my eyes.

RipublicaninMass

nice ones scooter! I have the Sallee in PSA 2 and the Konetchey in NOoooooo

stown

I didn't read his entire email because it's way too long and appears to be nothing more than damage control.

Now that he's come clean to an extent, you should still demand and deserve a 100% refund including S/H AND grading fees.

Keep in mind that he KNOWINGLY and MALICIOUSLY sold you a trimmed/altered card, regardless of how he's trying to spin it.

PS: You're welcome for the head's up

PPS: +1 for a stone sighting

chb

stown: I agree 100%. If he wants absolution he should find a priest, if he wants to make things right he should refund in full + PSA fees.

RipublicaninMass

<< <i>stown: I agree 100%. If he wants absolution he should find a priest, if he wants to make things right he should refund in full + PSA fees. >>



+ I get to keep the card Let's see how it goes

Alfonz24

<< <i>stown: I agree 100%. If he wants absolution he should find a priest, if he wants to make things right he should refund in full + PSA fees. >>



Agreed! You will find out how much his conscience is really bothering him.

Best of luck!

cohocorp

he is just rationalizing again with his argument of altered/trimmed. i agree with stown.

RipublicaninMass

Hello Ted;

Please believe me and from the bottom of my heart with God as my witness, I truly am very sorry. It a nice feeling to get this off my conscience and not have it eating away at me for what I did and regretted doing since day 1.

I'm happy to hear that PSA slabbed it for you as authentic. If, you were going to return it to me. I was either just going to keep it and put it in a frame or send it to SGC or GAI for a pre-grade to see if they found it to be trimmed or altered. If, it turned out to be either. Then, I was going to ask them to slab it as just being an authentic T3 card. I strongly believe that it would still be worth & sell for between $100 & $150 just as a slabbed authentic card.

I sincerely appreciate you not leaving me negative feedback, because it's been my goal to maintain 100% positive feedback which I came very close to blowing that with you and won't ever do something like this again which might keep me from achieving that goal.

Thank you for your understanding and please believe me, Ted. I will always fully disclose everything that I have knowledge of, regarding any ungraded cards which I might list for auction on eBay in the future.

Sincerely & with much regrets,

hack

To stown; Have you ever made a mistake, admitted it, and hoped that others would give you a second chance? Or, are you so perfect that you've never ever made a mistake in your life and don't believe in giving someone a second chance? I'd bet that you have made your share of mistakes, but you sound like you're maybe the type of person who would never admit it! Also, let me set the record straight! The T3 Konetchy card did come back from PSA as being "Altered" and not as "Trimmed". To the best of my knowledge, there is a difference which PSA has designated printed labels for which say; "Altered", "Trimmed", "Recolored", etc. So, if PSA had determined the T3 to be have been trimmed when I first sent it to them. Then, I would have gotten it back from PSA with it labeled with the printed sticker that said "Trimmed", instead of the "Altered" sticker. But, Ted got it back from PSA with the printed "Trimmed" label. Like, I said in my email to Ted. If, he had gotten it back from PSA labeled as an "Altered" card. Then, I believe that the right thing for me to have done, would have been to reimburse him for his grading fees. Because, I had sold this T3. knowing PSA had returned it to me as an "Altered" card which I didn't believe that it had been which is besides the point. But, I didn't sell this T3, knowing that it had been a "Trimmed" card. So, why should I feel obligated to reimburse Ted the grading fees for something which I had no knowledge of when I sold it? However, I still did give Ted 1/2 of the grading fees which he paid for this supposedly now "Trimmed" T3 card and offered to also refund what he paid me for this T3 Konetchy card which by the way was about $85 including the shipping cost. So; Ted ended up with a PSA "Authentic" graded & slabbed T3 that cost him a total of $115 which he now has listed on eBay with a "Buy It Now" price of $269. I truly hope that Ted gets his asking price and make more then a net 100% profit on this now PSA graded T3 Konetchy card which he got from me whom you apparently would not give a second chance and buy anymore cards from.

JohnnyD

"sunsurfandsand" posted a message on this board earlier today or last night under the name "hack" where he vilifies a buyer for cracking out a PSA 3 he sold and getting a PSA 4 grade for it and now reselling it. In his post he is amazed that PSA gave it a 4 when it had a bad crease...yet when he was selling it as a PSA 3 he described the crease as minor and stated the card looks like a 5...check it out, title is something like "My PSA 3 is now a PSA 4"....sour grapes and a loser...

stown

<< <i>To stown; Have you ever made a mistake, admitted it, and hoped that others would give you a second chance? Or, are you so perfect that you've never ever made a mistake in your life and don't believe in giving someone a second chance? I'd bet that you have made your share of mistakes, but you sound like you're maybe the type of person who would never admit it! >>



Rather than defend your earlier whine post and previous shenanigans, you call me out?

Ha!

I've never made a mistake, so your spining doesn't apply to me.

Get bent.

RipublicaninMass

Tom, did it make a diffrence if the card is "trimmed" or "altered"?? What DOES matter is that you sent the card to PSA and it was rejected, and you FAILED to mention that in the auction. You even tried to cover it up until I uncovered your submission

RipublicaninMass

aother updates sportscom recived a neg and I got this in my inbox

update: I GUESS he can't leave feedback hahahhahahaha


"You never did ask me for a refund. What an a**hole you are. Leave a negative on the last possible day and don't even give me a chance to make it right. Rot in hell." 8:52 PM

"The bad thing about your little stunt, at the last possible minute, is that not only did you not ask for a refund, it would have been no problem. The card was consigned. I had no problem with a refund because it was not my money or problem. If you want a refund ask next time instead of hurting someone's livelyhood with an act like that." 9:09

Well here was his INITIAL emails

I wrote BEFORE grading "looks a little short"

I don't thik so. They were purchased about 25 years ago from a very reputable dealer. I don't think anyone would bother to trim cards with pinholes and other problems. What would be the purpose?

I then had it graded and wrote "PSa says trimmed"

I really feel bad about the card being graded that way. I certainly had no inclination that that would be the case. With the condition of the card, who would bother trimming it. It must have happened many years ago. My customer has had the card for at least 25 yrs. It was a consigned sale. I have sold about 300 of his cards and this one was the only problem card. I don't know if I guaranteed the card or not. Normally, it is up to the buyer whether to chance it being graded properly. I'm sure I have sold cards that were graded and resold for a profit.

So he did not guarantee the card, and no is mad. BTW he withholds feedback, I left him a positive for one that graded