Just because 4SC says it so doesn't make it so.....

samspop

Just wanted to vent this morning. Just received the following card back from PSA under a Mechanical Error submission:



I know 4SC submitted a group of these and called them "Silver", well that does not exist, they are actually called "Superbafoil" which is how it is listed in the PSA McGwire Master Set Registry. I explained this, sent the card in for correction, and it still came back wrong. Now, I have to send it back AGAIN, in the hopes they get it fixed before I can get it added to the registry....COSETTA, HELP!!!!!

Whew, I feel better....

fandango

do you think McGwire will still make the hall? yes or no

samspop

If Barry makes the hall, which he will, it will open it up for the rest of the "Steroid Era" guys. All players who played the majority of their careers from 1989-2005 are going to be under a cloud of suspicion, but you can't blame the players, you gotta blame baseball. The problem I have is that the hitters get all of the grief...there were probably just as many pitchers using stuff during this time, as well.

To answer your question, yes, I think he will, but it is hard to say when...

By the way, that is one he!! of a Pujols collection you have!! I am impressed, to say the least!

alnavman

I also think McGwire will eventually make the hall....... IF Barry makes it....now if for some reason they don't vote Barry in then I don't think Mark will ever be voted in either. I think the same applies for any of the others associated with the steroids issue.....

Leiascards

I think McGwire and Sosa both make it if only for what the 1998 season did for Baseball and the fact that both of them were the center of that season.

fandango

<< <i>If Barry makes the hall, which he will, it will open it up for the rest of the "Steroid Era" guys. All players who played the majority of their careers from 1989-2005 are going to be under a cloud of suspicion, but you can't blame the players, you gotta blame baseball. The problem I have is that the hitters get all of the grief...there were probably just as many pitchers using stuff during this time, as well.

To answer your question, yes, I think he will, but it is hard to say when...

By the way, that is one he!! of a Pujols collection you have!! I am impressed, to say the least! >>




The problem i have with this argument is this : show me a picther from that era that put up amazing numbers, dominated hitters, and broke records......there arent any....other then Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Clemens, there are no other pitchers who put up BONDZ like pitching numbers.....steroids elevated many hitters stats, but i dont see the same with pitchers....

IF ANYHTING, steroids helped the mediocre pitcher pitch more often and get shelled more often....thus helping the cheating hitters....

i dont think the percentage of players using roids is as high as Canseco would want us to believe....he wants to make it sound liek EVRYONE was doing so its no big deal for him to have done it...this is wrong! the majortiy of players are clean and i think you can make a list of 20 well known players that have done roids and that is it.....

Bonds
Sheff
Giambi
Palmerio
Canseco
mcGwire
Sosa
B anderson
Dykstra
caminiti
Irod
Nomar......
anymore i forgot....



ps..thanks samspop, i have been collecting him since 2001...i dont collect any other modern..i collect vintage plus 2001 pujols cards...

fergie23

Clemens has put up numbers in his late 30s & 40s as a pitcher nearly equivalent to what Bonds did as a hitter.

But in the end who cares? Steriods and HGH weren't banned by baseball at the time so why crucify guys if they used them? They will ultimately pay the penalty health wise for their decision to use roids and human growth hormone (though if you look at Sly Stallone HGH seems to be helping his aging process).

I just find it humorous that Bonds is so vilified. If he were all nice & cuddly with the media this debate would be carried out entirely differently.

It is crazy that people castigate baseball players for roids use and then go out and cheer like mad for their favorite football team and players. I know 3 guys from my college while I was there that went on to play in the NFL and I used to play basketball with all of them. The summer before they entered the NFL each of them gained 20+ pounds of muscle. These guys had been working out and lifting since they were in 8th grade and suddenly "found" a new workout regimen that packed on 20 pounds of muscle in less than 3 months...no chance. My college had state of the art workout facilities and strength training coaches. I'm not saying every player in the NFL uses illegal supplements but the number that do or have in the past greatly dwarfs what you see in MLB and you don't see the media go after them like they do baseball players.

RipublicaninMass

But in the end who cares? Steriods and HGH weren't banned by baseball at the time so why crucify guys if they used them

WinPitcher

Steriods and HGH weren't banned by baseball at the time so why crucify guys


I guess the federal drug laws that these guys broke does not matter?


Steve

stitzen

<< <i>
But in the end who cares? Steriods and HGH weren't banned by baseball at the time so why crucify guys if they used them? They will ultimately pay the penalty health wise for their decision to use roids and human growth hormone (though if you look at Sly Stallone HGH seems to be helping his aging process). >>



Cocaine isn't specified as a banned substance in baseball, but is a crime to own and possess, just like HGH/steroids without a doctor's prescription. However, without a failed drug test and with only second-hand information, you cannot convict someone. Therefore, McGwire, Sosa, Bonds should all be in, Raffy out.


Funny how quickly this thread detoured. Sounds like the OP needs to get on the phone with someone and explain the card and situation, so he doesn't have to go through this struggle again.

fergie23

I guess the federal drug laws that these guys broke does not matter?

Not to the record books.

I don't see players that have commited other crimes not specifically banned by baseball (DUIs, battery, etc) being treated the same way. Sure we don't laud their behavior but people don't try and rewrite the record books because of it.

samspop

Thanks stitzen...I wondered if my original rant would be mentioned again on this thread. Good to know that all opinions matter on this board and no matter how a thread starts, nobody will get villified for taking in another direction.

As far as getting PSA to fix this card, Cosetta will step up to the plate and make sure it happens...I hope Joe O. realizes what a hero we all see in Cosetta!!!

colebear

<< <i>Just wanted to vent this morning. Just received the following card back from PSA under a Mechanical Error submission:



I know 4SC submitted a group of these and called them "Silver", well that does not exist, they are actually called "Superbafoil" which is how it is listed in the PSA McGwire Master Set Registry. I explained this, sent the card in for correction, and it still came back wrong. Now, I have to send it back AGAIN, in the hopes they get it fixed before I can get it added to the registry....COSETTA, HELP!!!!!

Whew, I feel better.... >>



I do not know if this is 4sc corners fault, PSA mislabels cards every once in a while, sometimes twice. Write Carol a PM and explain your situation and she will help you.

Estil

<< <i>However, without a failed drug test and with only second-hand information, you cannot convict someone. Therefore, McGwire, Sosa, Bonds should all be in, Raffy out. >>



You are absoultely 100% right. FINALLY, someone else around here who respects the fact that we live in the United States where you're innocent until proven guilty.

samspop

Not to be defensive, but I am not blaming 4SC (if "blame" was construed from the original posting, then we live in a VERY sensitive society), I am just saying when they submit a batch of like cards, it becomes gospel for PSA. I have done a little more research and depending on which reference guide you read, some call these cards Silver and some call them Superbafoil. The problem I have is the inconsistency in which PSA labels cards...If you are going to call them Silver, then ALWAYS call them Silver, likewise, if you are going to call them Superbafoil, then ALWAYS call them Superbafoil....

CDsNuts

First of all, I don't think anything should ever be called 'Superbafoil' for any reason. Second of all, 4SC somehow gets PSA to label their cards however they want. The recently sold a batch of PSA graded 1991 Topps Desert Shield checklists. That's great, except the checklists weren't stamped with the Desert Shield logo so there's no way to tell whether they're just plain old regular 1991 Topps checklists. They still brought $50-$100 each which means they basically made money off PSA's labelling error.

pandrews

<< <i>First of all, I don't think anything should ever be called 'Superbafoil' for any reason. >>



i agree.. and ive never heard it called Superbafoil before.. hell, i opened a ton of the stuff back in the day and i always called them "silver foil"..

samspop

This is from the 2007 Standard Catalog of Baseball Cards:



The problem still goes back to the consistency...whatever you call it, call it that all of the time. If you look in the McGwire Master Set Composite, they have this listed as "Superbafoil"....

detroitfan2

<<But in the end who cares? Steriods and HGH weren't banned by baseball at the time so why crucify guys if they used them? >>

This couldn't be farther from the truth. Faye Vincent banned steroids in Major League Baseball on June 7, 1991. Just because MLB had no legal way to test players didn't mean steroids were legal. This fact is mis-stated time and time again.

RonBurgundy

McGwire is a lifetime two sixty something hitter who got half of his home runs from taking stuff in violation of federal law, no matter what baseball's policy was at the time. He barely scored 1500 hits in his career, and never did anything defensively of any consequence. The fact is there are 30 guys who deserve HOF induction before he should even be a blip on the HOF radar screen.




Ron

samspop

I am not sure we can call any of these guys "guilty" if they did not test positive. As much as I DESPISE Barry Bonds, at the end of the day, he has been able to stay one step ahead of the testing process...just like all of the other guys did. Making something illegal or against the rules without a valid way to test for it falls back to MLB's fault, doesn't it?? It's kinda like being pulled over for going too fast. Without a legitimate "speed", it won't hold much weight in a court of law...or for that matter, the court of public opinion...

fergie23

Aug. 22, 1998 – Mark McGwire and Androstenedione
A jar of androstenedione is discovered in the locker of St. Louis slugger Mark McGwire, who is neck and neck with Sammy Sosa in the great chase at Roger Maris' all-time record of 61 homers hit during the 1961 season. McGwire admits he uses the steroids precursor and goes on to hit a then record 70 homers. Using steroids, precursors or performance-enhancing drugs is not illegal at that point in Major League Baseball.

Apparently either the author of this chronology is wrong or more than a "memo" indicating steriods would be added to the banned substance list is needed to actually get steriods on the banned substance list.

So the real question is did steroids actually get on the banned list or not after the commish sent out the memo...

edited so as not to sound like a pompous jerk

ArnyVee

If all of these players are found guilty of using steroids or admit the use of them, should they be excluded by the hall?

I mean, if McGwire deserves induction, then Raffy does too, doesn't he? The stats aren't even close between those two aside from the homers.

McGwire .263 BA - 1167 RUNS - 1626 HITS - 252 DOUBLES - 6 TRIPLES - 583 HRS - 9 Times in the Top 20 in MVP Vote - 12 Time All Star - 3 Time Silver Slugger - 1 Gold Glove
Palmeiro .288 BA - 1663 RUNS - 3020 HITS - 585 DOUBLES - 38 TRIPLES - 569 HRS - 10 Times in the Top 20 in MVP Vote - 4 Time All Star - 2 Time Silver Slugger - 3 Gold Gloves

Thoughts?

detroitfan2

<<Aug. 22, 1998 – Mark McGwire and Androstenedione
A jar of androstenedione is discovered in the locker of St. Louis slugger Mark McGwire, who is neck and neck with Sammy Sosa in the great chase at Roger Maris' all-time record of 61 homers hit during the 1961 season. McGwire admits he uses the steroids precursor and goes on to hit a then record 70 homers. Using steroids, precursors or performance-enhancing drugs is not illegal at that point in Major League Baseball.

Apparently either the author of this chronology is wrong or more than a "memo" indicating steriods would be added to the banned substance list is needed to actually get steriods on the banned substance list.

So the real question is did steroids actually get on the banned list or not after the commish sent out the memo...>>

Fergie, interesting catch, I did not see that part. I was led to believe that steriods were illegal starting in 1991, but the 1998 story says otherwise?

fergie23

I don't think anyone has indicated that steriods make it easier to hit the baseball just to hit it farther. Palmeiro has 3000 hits which should guarantee entry in the HOF.

Of course the writers will be on a crusade to punish those evil baseball players that tainted their sport so he probably won't get voted in even though he deserves it.

fergie23

DF2, the commish probably got stopped by the Players Union somehow. It would be interesting to find out what ended up happening.

Of course if they were illegal in 1991 in MLB that puts a different spin on things. I believe in Bonds leaked grand jury testimony he admitted to having taken roids but thought they were something else (flax seed oil).

RonBurgundy

The whole argument of whether steroids was "illegal" in MLB is such a red herring in this debate. The fact is, McGwire and others in all likelihood used substances that a vast majority of people believe to be against the basic rules of fair play. That's what is at issue here. If MLB deemed aspirin to be illegal yet MM used it and hit 70 HR's, would people care? No. But people believe - and rightly so - that use of andro, HGH, and steroids violates basic rules of fair play and integrity. He, Bonds, and others are the equivalent of the local shady businessman......the guy who makes millions without breaking the law but yet through unethical and unscrupulous means. A local community isn't going to hail the shady businessman as a pillar of their community, so why should baseball honor these guys through the HOF? The answer is, you don't.

I would also add 2 footnotes to this point: 1) before I hear the slippery slope, "where do you draw the line argument", let me answer that. I don't know where you draw the line, but you do draw the line. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me for a consensus to form around barring players that were under great suspicion for use of steroids. 2) If these same players deem their reputations and their entry into the HOF to be so important, then let them submit to a lie detector test to clear their good names. This is what I think of whenever I hear the tired old line of "they haven't ever tested positive, blah blah blah." Ok, fine. How about doing the game, the fans, and themselves a favor then by proving that no testing was ever necessary by taking a lie detector test to clear their name and remove the cloud. That won't happen, and we all know why.



Ron

WinPitcher

Cocaine isn't specified as a banned substance in baseball,

what!! you have got to be kidding me.


Steve

WinPitcher

mean, if McGwire deserves induction, then Raffy does too, doesn't he?

No, Raffy is out. I would hope that he does not even get the minumum votes needed to stay on the ballot.


Steve

samspop

McGwire admitted to using Andro, as the article states, but even as a "Steroid Precursor", it was not specifically banned by baseball until later...

fergie23

Judge and jury by the court of public perception...which is of course shaped by the writers many of whom have their own axes to grind. Everyone in MLB who participated during the late 80s & 90s that is big and brawny is put under the cloud of suspicion and denied entry into the HOF.

The real test for me will be Clemens. If they let him in then every player that hasn't tested positive and has the credentials (ie typical HOF statistics) deserves to be in with him...

RonBurgundy

I would be in favor of raising the percentage required for induction to 85%. This would be one way to "raise the bar" so to speak without casting stones at any individual inductee. The percentage required for those selected by the veteran's committee could remain at 75%.



Ron

samspop

I agree with the Clemens argument. I am not sure the "lie detector" test would hold much weight. If a player convinces himself he has done nothing wrong, it is not hard to trip up a lie detector. As an example, say Juan Gonzalez and Barry Bonds pass the test and McGwire and Sosa fail, should entry to the Hall be based on this test at that point??? I think not...

Anyway....what about my dang SUPERBAFOIL????????

stitzen

<< <i>McGwire is a lifetime two sixty something hitter who got half of his home runs from taking stuff in violation of federal law, no matter what baseball's policy was at the time. He barely scored 1500 hits in his career, and never did anything defensively of any consequence. The fact is there are 30 guys who deserve HOF induction before he should even be a blip on the HOF radar screen.

Ron >>



Alas but there aren't 30 guys above Mac in the home run list, so I will have to respectfully disagree with you. He got half his home runs taking stuff in violation of federal law? That's quite an accusation there. There's a certain slugger named Reggie Jackson who hit .262 for his career, and 20 less home runs than Mac. Shall we toss him out as well? Mac had a much, much better OBP than Reggie (nearly .400 vs. .350 for Reggie).


Let's look at the facts, and leave out accusations and opinions:

McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds have never failed a drug test. They have yet to test positive for any banned substance. Rumor and heresay alone are not enough to convict someone in a court of law, why is it enough to punish someone playing a game?

The three men mentioned above have all accomplished feats that put them in the upper echelon of MLB immortality. 70 HRs in a season, 3 60 HR seasons, 751+ career home runs...these are all records for the ages. Instead, we are so eager to pull down those which we built up (and please, nobody tell me you *knew* Sosa and McGwire were using drugs in 98).

Until one of these accused confesses to using illegal substances, until there is a definitive answer from an outside investigation, it is pure folly to sit in judgment without knowing all the facts.

As far as hall voting goes, what needs to happen is to make these votes public, to make those who don't vote for guys like Cal Ripken or Tony Gwynn on their first ballot subject to criticism and have to answer why they voted no. That would fix a great deal of these problems.

colebear

<< <i>I do not know if this is 4sc corners fault, PSA mislabels cards every once in a while, sometimes twice. Write Carol a PM and explain your situation and she will help you. >>





<< <i>Not to be defensive, but I am not blaming 4SC (if "blame" was construed from the original posting, then we live in a VERY sensitive society), I am just saying when they submit a batch of like cards, it becomes gospel for PSA. I have done a little more research and depending on which reference guide you read, some call these cards Silver and some call them Superbafoil. The problem I have is the inconsistency in which PSA labels cards...If you are going to call them Silver, then ALWAYS call them Silver, likewise, if you are going to call them Superbafoil, then ALWAYS call them Superbafoil.... >>



I am not sure if this was meant for me, but I am pretty sure it was. So, to clarify I did not say blame 4sc, I said I did not know if this was their fault. Keyword: I. I was just trying to help you out with a positive solution to your problem, so you did not send it in again and have the same problem again. I am sorry for the suggestion, just trying to help another board member. I would call you the sensitive one. Your welcome.

RonBurgundy

"McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds have never failed a drug test. They have yet to test positive for any banned substance. Rumor and heresay alone are not enough to convict someone in a court of law, why is it enough to punish someone playing a game?"


The answer is pretty simple. We're not deciding whether or not to put them in jail; we're deciding whether they should be honored among the greats of the game.

fandango

<< <i>

<< <i>However, without a failed drug test and with only second-hand information, you cannot convict someone. Therefore, McGwire, Sosa, Bonds should all be in, Raffy out. >>



You are absoultely 100% right. FINALLY, someone else around here who respects the fact that we live in the United States where you're innocent until proven guilty. >>




Dudes, you know about the leaked Grand Jury Testimony Right? Bonds and SHeff admitted they took steroids, they just said they didnt know they were steroids at the time....

and since. Faye Vincent banned steroids in Major League Baseball on June 7, 1991, this makes them found cheating, although they didnt "fail a test"...there are other ways to convict someone of a crime besides a DNA sample/TEST....

"Just because MLB had no legal way to test players didn't mean steroids were legal. This fact is mis-stated time and time again. "

stitzen

<< <i>
The answer is pretty simple. We're not deciding whether or not to put them in jail; we're deciding whether they should be honored among the greats of the game. >>



You are attempting to decide that with nothing more than circumstantial evidence, rumor, and emotion.

samspop

One question for any true baseball fan...Who wasn't glued to their seats every night towards the end of the 1998 season wondering where the record would fall and by how much???

That was probably the most fun baseball fans had in years and the whole country was captivated...chemical free or not, McGwire and Sosa did help baseball survive through a pretty tough time...

stitzen

<< <i>One question for any true baseball fan...Who wasn't glued to their seats every night towards the end of the 1998 season wondering where the record would fall and by how much???

That was probably the most fun baseball fans had in years and the whole country was captivated...chemical free or not, McGwire and Sosa did help baseball survive through a pretty tough time... >>



Of course everyone was watching and rooting and cheering for them. It was McGwire and Sosa, not Ripken, that saved baseball and brought it back from the brink after the strike that canceled the world series. To say otherwise is revisionist history pure and simple.

RonBurgundy

Circumstantial evidence is used to convict people and put them in jail all the time, so I have no problem applying it to HOF issues. As for "rumor and emotion", the leaked grand jury testimony as well as the Grimsley affidavit would seem to be more than just rumors. But hey, let's just go ahead and put 'em in the Hall so we can enable more players to do the same. If it makes us the fan feel good about baseball, that's all that matters, right?

jmbkb4

<< <i>If all of these players are found guilty of using steroids or admit the use of them, should they be excluded by the hall?

I mean, if McGwire deserves induction, then Raffy does too, doesn't he? The stats aren't even close between those two aside from the homers.

McGwire .263 BA - 1167 RUNS - 1626 HITS - 252 DOUBLES - 6 TRIPLES - 583 HRS - 9 Times in the Top 20 in MVP Vote - 12 Time All Star - 3 Time Silver Slugger - 1 Gold Glove
Palmeiro .288 BA - 1663 RUNS - 3020 HITS - 585 DOUBLES - 38 TRIPLES - 569 HRS - 10 Times in the Top 20 in MVP Vote - 4 Time All Star - 2 Time Silver Slugger - 3 Gold Gloves

Thoughts? >>



absolutely.

stitzen

<< <i>Circumstantial evidence is used to convict people and put them in jail all the time, so I have no problem applying it to HOF issues. As for "rumor and emotion", the leaked grand jury testimony as well as the Grimsley affidavit would seem to be more than just rumors. But hey, let's just go ahead and put 'em in the Hall so we can enable more players to do the same. If it makes us the fan feel good about baseball, that's all that matters, right? >>



No, it's not. Circumstantial evidence is not used to convict people, and it surely shouldn't be used to keep deserving players out of the hall of fame. Finally, where do you draw the line? Do you go back and kick out those players who admitted to using 'greenies' to get up for a day game? Mike Schmidt openly admits to it. Shall we kick him out? He cheated, using a federally banned substance, and it surely was performance enhancing.

stown

<< <i>Circumstantial evidence is not used to convict people >>



You sure about that?

All the evidence could be circumstantial. It's up to the jury to find any reasonable doubt.

I'm not a lawyer but do watch Law and Order