Biggio vs. Alomar, for 2B

jaxxr

On another sports related board, this is a big tiopic.

I usually reserve any judgements on a player still active, Biggio in this case, but do have an opinion.

I feel Alomar is a very slightly better 2B on defense, and a solidly, though still only slightly, better 2B on offense.

Roberto has better top single seasons, and better career average rates, BA, RC/27, OPS+, steals and steal percent, Etc.
Not by much, but slightly better.

Please comment.

Skinpinch

Man, I am already Rod Carew, Craig Biggioed out.

ziggy29

If you factor in the fact that Biggio was primarily a catcher in his first four seasons, I think some of any advantage Alomar may have evaporates.

perkdog

Tough call, its a matter of opinion. My opinion, I would take Alomar first.

GlynRParson

I would also take ALOMAR.

WeekendHacker

It's a close call, I'd probably go Alomar. But if you were to toss Rennie Stennett in the mix, then you'd have a fight on your hands.

grote15

In his prime, Alomar is the superior player, but overall, career-wise, I'd say it's a dead heat, as Biggio has enjoyed the longevity that many voters look for when voting for the HOF.

ziggy29

<< <i>In his prime, Alomar is the superior player, but overall, career-wise, I'd say it's a dead heat, as Biggio has enjoyed the longevity that many voters look for when voting for the HOF. >>

Good point. Alomar was clearly better in terms of peak value. But for the entire career, Biggio makes a bit of a comeback. In fact, if you look at career OPS+ there's not that much difference (Alomar wins 116-113). The fact that Biggio did it with four years at catcher makes a bit of a difference to me.

I'm not even looking at HOF voting per se, but simply who was "better" in an objective sense. By itself, I'd go slightly with Alomar, but Biggio has several intangibles in his favor that level the playing field, IMO:

* longevity (playing closer to his peak value for more years than Alomar);
* ability to play several positions (including catcher), going where the team needed him without putting up a stink
* staying with one team for 20 years

But then, factor in defense, and Alomar has 10 Gold Gloves to Biggio's 4. I think it's largely a flawed award because it tends to go to players who already have a reputation and history of winning them, and because they're biased toward better hitters, but it's still something when evaluating the total package.

IMO, you could make strong cases for either one over the other in terms of the entire body of work. To summarize the cases for each over the other:

Biggio: Twenty years with same ball club, ability to play multiple positions (even catcher), 3000 hits, 5 Silver Slugger awards (one at catcher), never spat on an umpire

Alomar: Higher peak value, considered best at his position for some years, career .300 hitter, 10 Gold Gloves, 474 steals (success rate more than 80%)

If someone held a gun to your head and made you pick one, even the "wrong" choice would be a good choice.

dallasactuary

<< <i>If someone held a gun to your head and made you pick one, even the "wrong" choice would be a good choice. >>


I think that says it pretty well; in fact, it's hard to find two players as evenly matched. I am a little confused why everyone seems to think Alomar's peak value was clearly better than Biggio's - they're about the same, actually. The final answer comes down to the hardest things to assign an objective value to - Alomar's defense at second base was better, but Biggio played much longer and at a variety of positions. If we're voting , I vote for Biggio, but I don't think a vote for Alomar is "wrong".

As for the HOF, I think Biggio is very clearly the more deserving candidate; the HOF is not only about who is the best but about who has had a career worth honoring. Richie Allen was a far better baseball player than Biggio or Alomar - he was a far better baseball player than every player eligible for the HOF who isn't already in as well as 80% of the players who are already in. But I wouldn't vote to put him in as, obviously, would very many of the actual voters. Alomar isn't Allen, and he may get in someday, but the spitting on the umpire incident revealed more about Alomar the person than his fans probably care to admit, and while changing teams seven times in a 16 year career doesn't necessarily mean the player is a jackass, jackasses do change teams that often and there's nothing that clearly indicates Alomar wasn't one of them. Biggio, on the other hand, stayed put his entire career, was as close to his generation's "Charlie Hustle" as anyone, played whatever position he was asked to play or filled whatever spot in the batting order without complaint, and achieved the kind of milestones that demonstrate excellence, consistency and longevity. I think he is more deserving of the HOF than any player, eligible or not, not already in, even if he is not the best player among them.

BobaFett72

Alomar all day long.

Skinpinch

Dallas,

Well put analysis in your last post. That pretty much says it all.

estang

Alomar

alnavman

I was able to see Alomar play many times in person and on tv when he was in Cleveland and must admit he would be a hard one not to choose...him and Vizquel were magic during there years together in cleveland.