Revisiting Craig Biggio's place among 2B....Grich?
Skinpinch
Posts: 1,531
in Sports Talk
Dallas and I were discussing Rod Carew vs. Biggio in his thread, and I showed where Carew was better than Biggio. I would like to see where Biggio ranks among other second baseman in various measurements.
Batter/fielding Wins(BFW) from Total Baseball....all encompassing, including defense, adjustment for position. Defensive aspect is off, and so is position adjustment....but in this case since they are all 2B, it don't matter too much(except for Carew who moved to first, but didn't have to). This doesn't account for situation hitting.
BFW
Grich 50.9 (an example of too high of a defensive contribution)
Carew 39.5
Sandberg 36.8
Kent 36.7
Alomar 36.2
Whitaker 35.2
Biggio 32.9
WARP1 from BaseballProspectus...Wins above replacement player....a player is helped by having longer career.
Carew 122.7
Biggio 116.7
Grich 115
Sandberg 114.7
Alomar 110
Whitaker 108.5
Kent 98.1
Situational Batter Runs + Situational SB runs. No defense is included here!
Carew 470
Biggio 378
Alomar 355
Grich 305
Kent 300
Whitaker 250
Sandberg 242
OPS+ followed by their top ten rankings(which helps eliminate comparing to the average league player*). No baserunning!
Carew 131.....................1,3,3,4,4
Grich 125.......................1,7,9
Kent 125.......................no top tens
Whitaker 117................10,10,10
Alomar 116....................7
Sandberg 114...............7,8,8
Biggio 113.....................no top tens
As you can see, in the measurements that include defense, Biggio does not rank favorably with those guys, as he was a poor second baseman. He is last in the Total Baseball figure, and he just edges out the guys in the baseballprospectus WARP....but keep in mind that he barely edges out Grich and Sandberb. That is important because he played many more games than both of those guys, and this compares to the replacement level player. To play that many more years and be that close, is not favorable to Biggio.
He fares well in the situation Batter runs, primarily because he has good numbers with men on base(and the stolen bases are added). He does poorly in the OPS+, and does terrible in OPS+ dominance...which is the top ten finishes.
Who was better than?
No question Carew was better, and that isn't even considering that he is downgraded in those becaue he moved to 1B(and that didn't need to happen....See the Biggio thread). BUt who else?
Alomar? That may very well be a toss up.
Grich is the interesting case. He dwarfs Biggio in the Total Baseball....but that has been shown to be an incorrect defensive contribution. Even with a corrected one, he still falls next to Carew.
He is basically tied in the WARP category, but keep in mind that Biggio played many more games, and he barely edges him, and that is because in that figure it measures vs. league replacement value. I don't remember why Grich retired, but he looked like he had some baseball left in him.
Grich's last two seasons he had OPS+ of 100 and 109.
Grich's last two seasons he had WARP of 6.5 and 2.9......both above average.
Grich's last two seasons he had BFW of 1.8 and -0.1......a hair above average combined. Biggio has a total of -1 since 2000!
In other words, Grich could have easily played just two more seasons and have eclipsed Biggio in WARP1, and he didn't even have to be average to do so.
It took Biggio 4,000 more plate appearances to virtually tie Grich in WARP1!! FOUR THOUSAND.
It took Biggio 3,000 more plate appearances to edge Sandberg in WARP1.
It took Biggio 2,000 more plate apperances to edge Whitaker in WARP1.
And those guys all beat him in the Total Baseball measurement.
It may be surprisng to some to say that there is a non HOF 2B who was better than Biggio...and another in Lou Whitaker who can be considered just as good.
Batter/fielding Wins(BFW) from Total Baseball....all encompassing, including defense, adjustment for position. Defensive aspect is off, and so is position adjustment....but in this case since they are all 2B, it don't matter too much(except for Carew who moved to first, but didn't have to). This doesn't account for situation hitting.
BFW
Grich 50.9 (an example of too high of a defensive contribution)
Carew 39.5
Sandberg 36.8
Kent 36.7
Alomar 36.2
Whitaker 35.2
Biggio 32.9
WARP1 from BaseballProspectus...Wins above replacement player....a player is helped by having longer career.
Carew 122.7
Biggio 116.7
Grich 115
Sandberg 114.7
Alomar 110
Whitaker 108.5
Kent 98.1
Situational Batter Runs + Situational SB runs. No defense is included here!
Carew 470
Biggio 378
Alomar 355
Grich 305
Kent 300
Whitaker 250
Sandberg 242
OPS+ followed by their top ten rankings(which helps eliminate comparing to the average league player*). No baserunning!
Carew 131.....................1,3,3,4,4
Grich 125.......................1,7,9
Kent 125.......................no top tens
Whitaker 117................10,10,10
Alomar 116....................7
Sandberg 114...............7,8,8
Biggio 113.....................no top tens
As you can see, in the measurements that include defense, Biggio does not rank favorably with those guys, as he was a poor second baseman. He is last in the Total Baseball figure, and he just edges out the guys in the baseballprospectus WARP....but keep in mind that he barely edges out Grich and Sandberb. That is important because he played many more games than both of those guys, and this compares to the replacement level player. To play that many more years and be that close, is not favorable to Biggio.
He fares well in the situation Batter runs, primarily because he has good numbers with men on base(and the stolen bases are added). He does poorly in the OPS+, and does terrible in OPS+ dominance...which is the top ten finishes.
Who was better than?
No question Carew was better, and that isn't even considering that he is downgraded in those becaue he moved to 1B(and that didn't need to happen....See the Biggio thread). BUt who else?
Alomar? That may very well be a toss up.
Grich is the interesting case. He dwarfs Biggio in the Total Baseball....but that has been shown to be an incorrect defensive contribution. Even with a corrected one, he still falls next to Carew.
He is basically tied in the WARP category, but keep in mind that Biggio played many more games, and he barely edges him, and that is because in that figure it measures vs. league replacement value. I don't remember why Grich retired, but he looked like he had some baseball left in him.
Grich's last two seasons he had OPS+ of 100 and 109.
Grich's last two seasons he had WARP of 6.5 and 2.9......both above average.
Grich's last two seasons he had BFW of 1.8 and -0.1......a hair above average combined. Biggio has a total of -1 since 2000!
In other words, Grich could have easily played just two more seasons and have eclipsed Biggio in WARP1, and he didn't even have to be average to do so.
It took Biggio 4,000 more plate appearances to virtually tie Grich in WARP1!! FOUR THOUSAND.
It took Biggio 3,000 more plate appearances to edge Sandberg in WARP1.
It took Biggio 2,000 more plate apperances to edge Whitaker in WARP1.
And those guys all beat him in the Total Baseball measurement.
It may be surprisng to some to say that there is a non HOF 2B who was better than Biggio...and another in Lou Whitaker who can be considered just as good.
0
Comments
thanks for the number crunching!