Card Show Observations

TWOHOOKS

Hi guys,

Just wondering if anyone has noticed at some of the larger card shows some of the same preferential treatment from the various grading companies for certain people that I have.This also ties into a previous thread commenting on customer service which I believe depends heavily on who you are as far as the service and maybe grades you can expect.

At the recent Chicago Sportsfest we were sitting at the PSA submission tables after waiting a bit since the people were 3 deep at the folding metal chairs and Mr. Mint walks up with another guy and a signed basketball.He motions to one of the customer reps who is just wandering in the booth and they immediately come over to him at the end of the table.He asks her to show the ball to I assume a signature authenticator he must know and flips her the ball.No paperwork filled out,no waiting time,no money changing hands,nothing ! Talk about great customer service.About 2 minutes later the guy comes out spends about 5 minutes talking to Mr. Mint explaining why the signature is forged since he was shaking his head no multiple times and then Mr. Mint flips the ball back to what I assume is the guy trying to sell it to him.They both walk away and the scenario is over.

It must be nice to recieve this type of service at a show especially if you are deciding whether or not to purchase a signed item.The rest of us would have to either take a chance on trusting the person we bought it from or own experience.Then we would have to wait countless weeks to get the bad news if the item was forged.

Al Rosen waited a total of about 5 minutes to find this out,recieved a full assesment of the signature without spending a dime and as a result didn't waste any money on a forged item like maybe a lot of others do when going to these shows.I personally never buy items based on autographs due to this fact besides being burned myself a few times many years ago before authentication was being done.

This is one of many examples I could mention that I observe at these shows that seem to be a bit on the shady side.At least I haven't seen any of Mr. Mint's cronies inside the PSA grading booth like I did at the last National in LA at the GAI and SGC booths.Some of this behavior is simply amazing when you see it in action and realize a bumped up grade on a T206 card can result in thousands of dollars in appreciation over the initial purchase price.I really wonder how impartial this grading process really is and why certain customers ask for a particular person to handle their order at the grading company and it happens.I guess it pays to develop personal relationships to the actual people who are grading your cards.Watch how much of this goes on with Mike Baker at GAI if you have time at the next show.You will go away questioning the whole process.Sounds sort of like politics I guess.

I would be interested if any others on the board have noticed similar goings on at card shows.I buy quite a bit at most shows and am a Gold Powerseller on E-Bay specializing in vintage Cards and Pins.I also spend quite a bit in grading fees w/ PSA each year and have won numerous PSA Set Registry awards but I can't even imagine getting the type of treatment that the fat cats get at these shows.

Downtown1974

Thats some story Michael. I have met Mr. Mint a couple of times at shows and have seen how he conducts himself. I think your absolutely correct in saying politics plays a role, but that would apply to almost everything in life. I cant really comment on certain graders grading certain customers, I cant prove that happens. (just hear say). I used to get all steamed, hot and bothered by guys like Mint but I have learned to seperate the hobby aspect from the business aspect of cards. I wonder if Mr. Mint ever really understood card collecting. When he sees a 52 Mantle, Im sure he just sees the value in it. I wonder if he has ever seen it as a piece of baseball history.

nam812

You know what is the saddest part of that story? Micheal (and just about every one of us on the boards here) is a way better PSA customer than Mr. Mint. What I mean by that is, if a guy orders 2 pizza pies every Friday night for a year from me, and then walks in with his son on a Saturday afternoon for one slice, im not charging him for that slice, but if the guy who invented Mozzerella walks into my store once every 2 years to buy a slice of Pizza, im charging him. Hope that makes sense.

ping4u43

Interesting thing about Mr. Mint. Some years back all of his ads had at Big Slash Through Grading of gards. Basically he was 100% against grading.

WinPitcher

Watch how much of this goes on with Mike Baker at GAI if you have time at the next show.You will go away questioning the whole process.Sounds sort of like politics I guess.

That must explain my 'evidence of trimming' 1955 Spahn that i cracked out of a GAI holder.


Steve

Munnyman

TWOHOOKS, Great post... I was at the same show but didn't have the experience you did at the PSA booth. When I dropped a couple of items off the booth was deserted. I guess it was because they weren't doing on site grading. Getting back to Mr. Mint, I'm just glad he's not autographing his own bobble heads anymore.

ProspectorKing

saw some of that @ last year's national and to a lesser degree, @ the hollywood park show in april. seemed like plenty of dealers were hitting up the card cos and getting much more lenient grades @ the shows than they would if they'd sent in the subs by mail.

itsinthegrade

whats wrong with what happened there??? i know all of you must have a restaurant or bar where your a regular??? when you go in there get you get taken care first over someone else whos never been there. al has a relationship with them over the years so they take care of him. i manage a restaurant in nj & when were on a 1-2 hr wait if i see a regular i get them right in. so whats the difference??? there isnt any!! its a part of life you take care of people you know.

CubsFan41

happens every day.

cardbender

Personally, I think all customers should be treated the same at all times......with respect and with the prospect of them maybe doing more business with you in the future becausee of how they were treated the first time. We all know this doesn't happen in all businesses however.

To spin this thread a little, maybe Mr. Mint was buying a large lot of autographed items from this walk up seller. He might have taken one item to PSA to get their approval of the sig. before pulling the trigger on the deal. If PSA deemed it legit, maybe MintMan buys the deal and submits 100 item to PSA for grading. Meaning yeah you didn't see cash exchange hands initially with Mint and PSA, but down the road it may and could.

Also, there's been times when I've been submitting cards to PSA at shows where the PSA rep. helping me couldn't answer some of my specific questions. I then would ask to speak to Carol if she was there, or Ivan who is PSA's operations Manager, or even Joe O. since he has final authority over all aspects of PSA operations. I don't think I was asking for any favors per se, just wanted to get my questions resolved.

Also, if you do have any questions on any grades you've received and weren't happy about them, the service reps at shows can only offer empathy towards you, not resolution. So sometimes you must ask to speak to the person in charge.

Finally, why wouldn't a business want to keep their best customers happy? I'm not saying giving them better grades either, I'm saying offering them more detailed customer service at times. This is what I've seen at shows, more than grading favors.

Another point to make is that many of these national dealers see PSA at every major card show in the country an a frequent basis. So they are friendly with them because they see them all the time.

TWOHOOKS

First of all I am not naive enough to know a lot of this goes on in all businesses.I am a sales manager of a rather large retail building material outfit so I know special treatment is needed to develop larger accounts.This however is going on in a collectibles grading system.Where not talking about a free dinner or pizza or whatever.I can't believe anyone would think what we see going on at these shows is as far as it goes.

When I see a guy able to cut probably 15 or so people who are doing things the way they are supposed to be done and bypass all the forms and waiting time to get a signature evaluation then an authenticator spend around 5 minutes with him explaining why it isn't authentic I'm wondering what else is going on before the show opens.Especially when I hear of board members not even recieving a return phone call or proper explanations of issues after waiting months to recieve their items back.Do you really think Mr. Mint the Saint that he is isn't above doing certain things to fill his pockets a little more.How about the briefcases full of cash that you see floating around near his table that he loves to flaunt.Do you also think Mr. Mint wouldn't try to absolutely take advantage of anyone if he thought he could make a better deal for himself.He is motivated by CASH,period,sports collectibles are just a vehicle.

As I previously mentioned I've seen on numerous occasions a few of his associates who are constantly with him at these shows actually in where the cards are being graded with their briefcases.This includes being behind the grading curtain in the SGC booth.Check it out at the next show.Watch the people around Mr. Mint then just glance around at the grading booths and see if any are hanging around inside them on occasion as you are walking through the show.What can you imagine could possibly happen there and why if there is a curtain there to keep the public from viewing the process are these "customers" allowed to be in there when the grades are being assigned ? Kind of makes you wonder.I didn't think PSA was as susceptible to this until I saw the basketball flip scenario as I have never seen a customer in a PSA booth.

With the steep increase in value from a 7 to an 8 or a 9 just think of what shenanigans could happen.Especially if the good old boy tactics go on as in every business as a lot of you have stated.I'm not saying preferential treatment doesn't exist or shouldn't but when a grading system is involved for high end collectibles,these guys aren't having 1992 Donruss cards graded,try T206,T205,Goudey & Cracker Jack issues that are worth tens of thousands of dollars,it kind of cheapens the reason for the whole process.

I think some of the big time dealers also like flaunting their ability to pull strings as well at these shows.It is actually pretty amusing to me,the big fish in a small pond scenario.I've only spent probably $2,500.00 with PSA in June so I guess I'm not a big fish but when you're at a card show and your pretty much done,before you go back to your hotel or leave to catch your plane if you have some time just take a look around at the interactions of the dealers and their lifeblood,the grading companies.It can be rather enlightening and make you wonder about how legitimate some of these grades are.

dude

Given Mr. Mint's track record (ie the phony SGC graded T206 Doyle he sold to Olbermann and the fake vintage HOF autographed ball he gave away at the 2001 Cleveland National) perhaps PSA feels they need to go out of their way to prevent other fiascos and embarrassments to this hobby.

alnavman

I agree with Michael that it doesn't seem fair that some folks get the preferred treatment. Just look at the last basketball playoffs, who was sitting in all the best seats....did they all pay for them at the "scalpers" rate that you or I would have to pay?? I'm up here in Cleveland and guess who was being shown on TV at the games? None other than T.O. What does T.O. have to do with Cavs basketball?? I don't recall seeing him at any of the regular season games.....Now Usher shows up and is shown, but hey at least he was at some of the regular season games. And what kind of prices do all these celebs have to pay....

I was lucky enough to win three tickets for a New Jersey game in their "lottery"......maybe T.O. did the same....

nam812

<< <i>not talking about a free dinner or pizza or whatever. >>



If you re read it, you'll see that my pizzeria comment was actually agreeing with your point.

itsinthegrade

its business! i can go over to jsa, bgs & gai & i promise you i can talk to a rep immediately. i give them tons of business so in return they give me OVER THE TOP customer service. again its business!

TWOHOOKS

I would expect a higher level of customer service to be provided for larger,more regular customers.I look forward to talking w/ Carol from PSA at many shows I've attended as opposed to some of the other reps that seem barely awake or more interested in where they are going to party that night.I'm talking about something more than customer service or friendly conversations here.I've been a regular at these shows for years and spent a decent amount of dollars as well,I still have to fill out forms,wait in line to process my items then wait sometimes months to get my items back.When large dollars are involved alternate methods are usually tried to achieve a goal that puts dollars in pockets especially by unscrupulous people who don't mind short circuiting the system.Actually I think most get a kick out of being able to do this.Take a look at the SMR on T series cards and see what a difference one grade bumpup can make.Hopefully I am wrong on this matter but these are some of my observations and they lead me to question what is going on behind the scenes.That is why I am interested if anyone else has noticed similar situations.

julen23

i understand your point.

taken and understood.

julen

ps: mr mint has old, wrinkly balls

nam812

itsinthegrade - You're right that it's business, but you're wrong for overlooking the fact that 90% of the members on this board spend more with PSA than Mr. Mint. He should be sitting on the metal chair at the PSA booth, while these dedicated board members that spend thousands and thousands all year should be shown the red carpet.

Downtown1974

I agree with Nick. If PSA was to lose Mr. Rosens business tomorrow, I dont think they would be closing the doors on Tuesday.

cardbender

Michael,
If you feel this type of favoritism exists in the grading business and it upsets you, then simply walk away and choose to spend your dollars on collectibles and cards and not use any authenication company since you feel they may be corrupt.

It's not like they're pointing a gun at you to use their services.

While I understand exactly where you're coming from in your posts, I honestly don't believe dealers or Mr. Mint as you used in your example above, are bringing briefcases full of money or whatever to the grading companies booth's to pay for grading favors. They're bringing $$$ to shows to buy collections, not to influence the grading companies.

I've set up the Nationals, Sportsfests, Sun-Times shows myself. I've been around the PSA tables prior to the show opening to the public. I've never witnessed any of this myself. Don't forget some of these grading companies employ dealers to authenicate items. Steve Hart does wax pack authenticating for PSA. He's also a full-time dealer. Does that mean that Steve gets grading favors from PSA? The answer is of course not, but he's as close to being an expert in wax and rack pack verification that we have in the hobby and PSA is utilizing his talents in this area.

I think Global has some dealers that do the same for their products. It's not really unusual to see a dealer behind any grading companies booth at a show. It's doesn't mean they're buying grading favors. SGC use to employ graders that also sold cards of their own. It doesn't mean that when they were grading, they were grading their own cards and giving themselves lot's of 96's.

It sounds like you have an ax to grind at PSA about being skipped in line more than anything. You really can't prove the rest. You might suspect wrong doing but what are your facts to back up your claims other than you seeing dealers talking with PSA behind their booth?

A bigger issue to discuss is what goes on behind the scenes at auction houses. But that's another topic.

TWOHOOKS

Hi,

I really don't have an axe to grind with anyone.This business is like any other.I'm a big boy and have put up with a lot more crap than this industry can put out.Like Architects awarding multi-million dollar projects based on kickbacks from manufacturers.I personally know that happens frequently,this is why I can't believe this business is as clean as everyone makes it out to be especially with the amount of money that can be involved.All of us have to play the game with the grading companies or else we wouldn't be able to sell anything over the internet.I'm not pissed off since most of this doesn't affect me.I don't buy graded cards or pins,I sell them.These are just things I have seen going on.There are good and bad dealers.I just hope no one gets stung too severely from some of the bad ones.That is why I recommend watching what goes on at these shows so you can separate the good from bad.You wonder sometimes how certain cards end up in certain holders and can sell for thousands instead of hundreds.Than they show up on E-Bay or scans on this message board with people wondering how that grade could be assigned to that card.Probably human error in a subjective system huh !

Another observation at the PSA submission table.A very well known owner of one of the major Auction companies comes up with probably 50 or so off graded high end cards.I mean high end from companies like GEM,CSA,Capital Grading etc.Real garbage.He instructs the PSA Rep to cross them over in any grade.If not do not leave them in their current holders but give them back raw.Why do you think he bought this pile of junk for in the first place knowing that they were probably all trimmed or retouched ? Also why do you think he didn't want the ones back that wouldn't cross over left in the existing holders.What do you think he is going to do with the cards that are trimmed probably 90 % of them when they are now raw.Do you think they are going to be the next Nr-Mint ungraded offerings in his next auction for some unsuspecting sucker to buy so he can send it in to PSA and find out it's trimmed or be sold at the next show in his showcase ?

He had to know these cards are most likely trimmed that is why they were in the off brand holders in the first place.He also had to have a plan to make money off of them when they won't cross over to a PSA holder.How do you think he would achieve this ? This is a major dealer that sets up at every major show and sells a ton of both graded and ungraded items.

Obviously I will never buy an ungraded item from this shark but by observing what was happening I learned about this particular dealer.This is what I am getting at.There are tons of great guys in this industry - Brian Drent from Mile High,Bill Goodwin from Goodwin Auctions,Kyle's Sportcards,Chappell Sportscards,Bagger Sports Collectibles,McAvoy Sportscards,Mike from Columbia Sports Collectibles,Kevin from Kevin Savage Auctions etc.

Just a word of advice to keep your eyes and ears open at these shows you might learn something about certain people or this business the easy way instead of the hard way.

TNTonPMS

I wasn't at the show to see all that transpired before hand , he could have very well been dealing with the person before hand that nobody noticed ?

As far as anyone cutting the line just because they're well known ?
I have never gone for that garbage , I believe in treating people fairly all the time , one person is no more human than anyone else and really deserves no special treatment , If I have to wait on line , you have to wait on line and that's that , you have a problem with that and we'll just both step off the line and discuss this outside in the parking lot like gentlemen .

I've never done anyone dirty and don't ever expect to be done dirty , If it went down exactly as Mr. TWOHOOKS SAYS , I'd be quite angry and Mr.Mint and myself would be having words, without question .

I suppose some people just feel like they don't have to wait on line like the rest of us regulars < Shug >

It makes me wonder though if he would have pulled that move cutting in front of Curtis 6 foot 11 425 lbs who is a little upset already because the line is a little long and moving slowly .

LMAO Curtis , I just need you to grunt a little when we walk inside and look mean .
Curtis don't have a mean bone in his body, but you would never want to take the chance .

eyebone

I think TwoHooks is questioning the INTEGRITY of the card graders here, not whether or not Mr. Mint can cut in line.

Eyebone