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Baltimore show report (day 2)
MidAtlanticCoins
Posts: 182
Ah Baltimore in the summer. The show has been pretty brisk today with gold flying out of showcases fast for those willing to let it go at the new lower levels. Type material is still hot in the mid range grades.
Whitman is posting a newsletter during the show, and surprisingly it is incredibly accurate and honest.
Highlight:
"Summer tends to be a slower time of the year for the rare coin circuit. Fresh rare coins are in demand. That however seems to be the biggest problem with the show so far, very little new merchandise"
It is a great little comment and unexpected.
The weather has been spotty at best today with rain coming and going all day long. The public has been coming in pretty steadily all day looking for good material. Much like us dealers. Quite a few tougher items have traded hands during the show today, and overall all the dealers seem to be happy with the summer show.
While we are normally attending auctions during the day, the Bowers auction has very little appeal to our needs this time. It has allowed us to spend some much needed time on the floor picking up some fresh for us material. We are surprisingly having some difficulty finding some what should be common coins in common grades to fill the wantlists, but the show is still young.
For those who haven't been to a Baltimore show in a while, you will find the Whitman touch very nice. They have agressively marketed the show here in the area, and the cosmetic changes noted in the day 1 report are appealing to all that we have spoke with. They even have banners or signs at all the local hotels. This worked out well with the Yankees in town. Loads of fresh faces. The kids section has been emptied twice today. Luckily the dealers are stepping up to the pump and keeping the free coins flowing. We are actually down to the last few "kid freebies" ourself, and have cracked a few rolls of Adams dollars for the kids.
Overall Friday is winding down, and the show gets two thumbs up on our end.
Whitman is posting a newsletter during the show, and surprisingly it is incredibly accurate and honest.
Highlight:
"Summer tends to be a slower time of the year for the rare coin circuit. Fresh rare coins are in demand. That however seems to be the biggest problem with the show so far, very little new merchandise"
It is a great little comment and unexpected.
The weather has been spotty at best today with rain coming and going all day long. The public has been coming in pretty steadily all day looking for good material. Much like us dealers. Quite a few tougher items have traded hands during the show today, and overall all the dealers seem to be happy with the summer show.
While we are normally attending auctions during the day, the Bowers auction has very little appeal to our needs this time. It has allowed us to spend some much needed time on the floor picking up some fresh for us material. We are surprisingly having some difficulty finding some what should be common coins in common grades to fill the wantlists, but the show is still young.
For those who haven't been to a Baltimore show in a while, you will find the Whitman touch very nice. They have agressively marketed the show here in the area, and the cosmetic changes noted in the day 1 report are appealing to all that we have spoke with. They even have banners or signs at all the local hotels. This worked out well with the Yankees in town. Loads of fresh faces. The kids section has been emptied twice today. Luckily the dealers are stepping up to the pump and keeping the free coins flowing. We are actually down to the last few "kid freebies" ourself, and have cracked a few rolls of Adams dollars for the kids.
Overall Friday is winding down, and the show gets two thumbs up on our end.
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Comments
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Thanks for taking the time. Nice report.
-------------
etexmike
<< <i>Thanks. Great report. I have never been to a large show like Baltimore. Someday I will. >>
I've been to large shows, but never Baltimore. I plan on attending at least one Baltimore show in 2008.
The public was there as was the dealers, although I think Anaconda did not make it. They weren't at the assigned booth and the table was covered with a sheet.
I did not see many good, qualty coins at the tables I looked at. Candidly, I saw very few, very very few. In fact, I came home emptyhanded and I had a checkbook that was 5 figure ready to buy quality. I didn't see it in almos anyone and that takes into account many/most, of whom I consider to be, from the top of the line, cream of the crop dealers. One of whom, in fact, known for offering coins at multiples of bid offered me a coin midway between Greysheet bid and ask, while saying how strong it was.
Still there are good, honest and candid top of the line guys. These were the ones who up front said that they had little to offer at the moment. Since I was looking for high quality upgrades, there coudn't be a sale from me to them as they had nothing to replace what would become a hole in my collection.
On the selling end, I had dealers who looked at my coins and drooled. I heard "this is a great looking coin" a number of times on multiple coins. Yet, when it came time to make an offer, over half offered 20 percent back of bid and were surprised when I chuckled as the dance of the deal, unsuccessfully,concluded.
There are a name dealer or two who appeared to need to consult the Greysheet or a computer for what other coins were bought/sold rather than judge the coin in front of them in a case or two. Again, lowball offers resulted which ended the deal or no deal game.
What I did see move were widgets in a good number of cases, proof sets being the best example.
However, overall, as a higher end collector (and I apologize for how that can sound), I didn't find much to even wet my appetite and the response from dealers after seeing truly PQ coins from my end, suprised me. It's not like I'm unknown and am fresh meat. There's no wool being pulled over my eyes and I've been respected for that, for quite a long time in the past.
All the dealers, top of the line included, were friendly and nice but it was like, IMHO, a combination of a lack of quality material combined wih hesistancy to pay what true, fresh, top of the line PQ coins are worth when presented with them.
Still, it was a day out and a chance to renew friendships with dealers and collectors alike and that is always a great thing. It's just that as a successful show for buying and selling, to me, this Baltimore show didn't get it done.
I thought the show was weak, except at the highest levels, where business seems to remain brisk with ultra-wealthy collector/investors. But normal show traffic seemed quite slow to me, and not much fresh material. The Bowers auction was not inspiring, nor was it a source for anything exciting. Combine these facts with the summer season, and ANA only 5-6 weeks away, and you get a predictably weak show.
That said, it is still a very large show, with coins and related material for collectors at every level - so still worthwhile for the average collector -just not for a show junkie like me.
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
Sharp dealers consult the grey sheet because they know not-so-sharp ones live and die by it. That's business. And there are far
more of the tunnel vision types than not.
roadrunner
<< <i>. I heard "this is a great looking coin" a number of times on multiple coins. Yet, when it came time to make an offer, over half offered 20 percent back of bid >>
How else can they make a 40% margin but claim to be working off 15-20% mark-ups? The result is that they go home and post on their websites that nice coins were hard to come by. In fairness, if they paid sheet and marked it up 40% customers would scream that they were asking way too much since sheet was 40% less.
And then there is the lemming factor. They will warn collectors that coins can often be purchased for less on the bourse than they sell for at auction, which is in fact true in many cases. Then they go to the auctions themselves and pay up for coins they would only offer 20% back of bid for on the bourse.
CG
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Judging from how the other prices of type coins looked, this appeared to be a fairly weak sale imo. The photos were not good and gave the internet bidder no clue as to what the coins looked like. The auction house may prefer that since no lots can be returned from the floor bidders. The other posters hinted that the auction was not a factor in their show plans.
1795 half PCGS Fine 15 - $2128
1831 quarter PCGS MS62 - $2128
1879 3cn NGC PF66 $1035
1878-cc trade $1 VF25 $1265
1862 quarter PCGS PF62 $960
Wonder if CDN will wakeup and raise the Fine price of flowing hair halves from $1200. I've seen no PCGS or NGC slabbed fines bring under $1800.
roadrunner
next stop for us a buying spree down in NC and then on to SUMMER FUN in West Palm Beach....hope to see you on the road!
<< <i>At same point down the road, the lack of strong offers on nice stuff will be a crack in the dike. Could happen today or tomorrow.
Sharp dealers consult the grey sheet because they know not-so-sharp ones live and die by it. That's business. And there are far
more of the tunnel vision types than not.
roadrunner >>
I agree with you that sharp dealers consult....however....when you're speaking about high end coins that make up the top 1 to 5 percent of a grade, and where the next grade up jumps a price exponentially...and the dealer is considered by some as one of the better ones....that's not business as much as lack of self confidence, in my opinion.
It's not like I walked in, unknown from the street. In my area of concentration, I'm pretty known. I know the coin business and I know my specific area very well.
It wasn't that business or the show was slow, it was, I think, that something else was at play but I'm not exactly sure, yet, what it was.
<< <i>I just got back from the show and thought it was terrible, possible the worst Baltimore show ever.
The public was there as was the dealers, although I think Anaconda did not make it. They weren't at the assigned booth and the table was covered with a sheet.
I did not see many good, qualty coins at the tables I looked at. Candidly, I saw very few, very very few. In fact, I came home emptyhanded and I had a checkbook that was 5 figure ready to buy quality. I didn't see it in almos anyone and that takes into account many/most, of whom I consider to be, from the top of the line, cream of the crop dealers. One of whom, in fact, known for offering coins at multiples of bid offered me a coin midway between Greysheet bid and ask, while saying how strong it was.
Still there are good, honest and candid top of the line guys. These were the ones who up front said that they had little to offer at the moment. Since I was looking for high quality upgrades, there coudn't be a sale from me to them as they had nothing to replace what would become a hole in my collection.
On the selling end, I had dealers who looked at my coins and drooled. I heard "this is a great looking coin" a number of times on multiple coins. Yet, when it came time to make an offer, over half offered 20 percent back of bid and were surprised when I chuckled as the dance of the deal, unsuccessfully,concluded.
There are a name dealer or two who appeared to need to consult the Greysheet or a computer for what other coins were bought/sold rather than judge the coin in front of them in a case or two. Again, lowball offers resulted which ended the deal or no deal game.
What I did see move were widgets in a good number of cases, proof sets being the best example.
However, overall, as a higher end collector (and I apologize for how that can sound), I didn't find much to even wet my appetite and the response from dealers after seeing truly PQ coins from my end, suprised me. It's not like I'm unknown and am fresh meat. There's no wool being pulled over my eyes and I've been respected for that, for quite a long time in the past.
All the dealers, top of the line included, were friendly and nice but it was like, IMHO, a combination of a lack of quality material combined wih hesistancy to pay what true, fresh, top of the line PQ coins are worth when presented with them.
Still, it was a day out and a chance to renew friendships with dealers and collectors alike and that is always a great thing. It's just that as a successful show for buying and selling, to me, this Baltimore show didn't get it done. >>
thanks for the great report! i find it funny that "serious" dealers constantly lament that there is little fresh PQ material to be had, but when it does finally come face-to-face with them, they lowball the owner like a old lady with a sack full of culls. some people have no class, and you certainly can't buy class no matter how hard one tries.
Doug
<< <i>
<< <i>. I heard "this is a great looking coin" a number of times on multiple coins. Yet, when it came time to make an offer, over half offered 20 percent back of bid >>
How else can they make a 40% margin but claim to be working off 15-20% mark-ups? The result is that they go home and post on their websites that nice coins were hard to come by. In fairness, if they paid sheet and marked it up 40% customers would scream that they were asking way too much since sheet was 40% less.
And then there is the lemming factor. They will warn collectors that coins can often be purchased for less on the bourse than they sell for at auction, which is in fact true in many cases. Then they go to the auctions themselves and pay up for coins they would only offer 20% back of bid for on the bourse.
CG >>
yeah, or you have the types that buy at auction for current market/sheet value and put a huge margin on it thinking no one will find out. I found a GB Crown this afternoon by looking at a Goldberg auction archive from just three or four months ago. The coin isn't rare, and was purchased by the well-known (and posts here often) dealer for $160. It is on their website right now for $349. that is some mark-up! I have to laugh when i read of the 'small mark up' posts offered up by many dealers.
1. I had dinner with the guys from Anaconda last night, so I can personally say that they are definitely here. They did move their table location during the show - so if you can't find them, ask someone where they are. If you can't find anyone that knows, then please come to our table 355 and I will walk you over to them.
2. I have no idea what choice coins tcmitssr had or to whom they were offered, but I'd like to see them.
3. It's sounds like Doogy has had some bad experiences and believes all dealers are evil. That's unfortunate.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
There was a good crowd but no one was there, widgets were selling well but no one was buying them, quality coins were not available but sold well except that the dealers couldn't/wouldn't buy them because they only made lowball offers, and the sale was lackluster only bringing a modest amount above the sheet ask prices.
My Odds&Ends eBay Stuff to fuel my coin habit (No Coins)
Or you have 1 of the 10 best. Not very likely once you start to generalize. Heck, I'd be willing to bet that if you had the top bustie out of 200, it would likely go MS67. In my own collection I doubt that I have more than 2 coins out of say 60 that I would call in the top 5% for type. All are old holdered coins that might go the next grade.
Frankly, if a dealer claimed all their coins tend to be in the top 20% of those graded, I still wouldn't believe it. Imagine how many coins you would have had to have seen and ranked to justify your opinion.
(has any dealer on the bourse seen all 200 PCGS MS65 bust halves?....how about just 50?) More than likely, if your coin is top
1-5% (or even top 10%), you probably have a coin that would upgrade.
Most of us are doing quite well if the coins we have are in the top 20-30% of those graded. Remember, someone has the other
70-80% and they are the majority. When Elcontador finally found his legit PCGS MS65 Barber half after years of searching, I knew he found a top 1-5% coin.
As far as dealers being fussy while buying. I've had a few instances where I've shown dozens of high grade pieces to the very top retailers (some of them come to this forum) and was lucky to sell a single coin (they had first shots as well which was more surprising).
I just chalked it up to profit margins. They can't work on 10% or less like many wholesalers do. But I usually have no trouble selling those coins to others.
roadrunner
<< <i>I have several comments:
1. I had dinner with the guys from Anaconda last night, so I can personally say that they are definitely here. They did move their table location during the show - so if you can't find them, ask someone where they are. If you can't find anyone that knows, then please come to our table 355 and I will walk you over to them.
2. I have no idea what choice coins tcmitssr had or to whom they were offered, but I'd like to see them.
3. It's sounds like Doogy has had some bad experiences and believes all dealers are evil. That's unfortunate. >>
1. I'm glad they finally made it, safe and sound.
2. I'm very into the highest quality classic silver commems. Perhaps at the next Baltimore show, you might catch a look at whatever I bring that day. Everything is either a nice toner or a wow toner.
3. I can't address Doogy's post but I've had a few bad dealer experiences. They aren't all bad, IMHO most are decent guys and gals, but I think that one or two who might be thought of as good guys, may be more business (theirs) oriented than in building and maintaining the strong relationships with collectors (of all types, but in this post, I'm specifically speaking of someone like myself who buys/sells/trades the very best as I continually upgrade my completed collection throughout my life.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Sorry to hear about the traffic. I feared the traffic would be bad for the pre July 4th weekend so I did not go to the show.
Not in a coin buying mode right now because I had to put all my coin money into several mutual banks (owned by depositors) that just went public (my favorite investment besides foreign mutual funds). Two banks in my area decided to go public only three months apart. I also had to ramp up some savings accounts balances I already in other mutual savings banks foir fear that they too will soon go public.