Congrats to Frank Thomas - #500

stitzen

One of the greats who never had that steroid cloud over his head (with Griffey Jr.).

11th all time in OPS, top 20 in SLG and HR...truly a first ballot HoFer.

perkdog

Agreed, he tends to fly under the radar too

BobaFett72

I concur. Easily a HOF'er

RipublicaninMass

<< <i>Agreed, he tends to fly under the radar too >>



at this point in his career, he rolls under the radar

dude

<<.....truly a first ballot HoFer>>

Hmmm. I really wonder. The knock on The Big Hurt is that he's played more games as a DH 1163, compared to 971 as a first baseman.

I already heard one sportswriter on a sports talk show who votes for the Hall of Famer candidates state that he will never vote for a guy whose majority of At Bats were as a DH, and he said he wasn't alone on that stance.

basestealer

With 4 other guys hitting the 500 milestone this year, he's not a lock. Couple that with his poor defensive (or lack of any) abilities, and he really is just a guy that hits. Nothing else. Not a complete player, just half a player. It will be interesting if the voters choose the half a player DH or the steroid-injected position player. Maybe they won't choose any.

grote15

With 4 other guys hitting the 500 milestone this year, he's not a lock. Couple that with his poor defensive (or lack of any) abilities, and he really is just a guy that hits. Nothing else. Not a complete player, just half a player. It will be interesting if the voters choose the half a player DH or the steroid-injected position player. Maybe they won't choose any.

Agreed, though I think he'll get close to getting in, he may not for the reasons cited above.

stitzen

The argument that he's 'half a player' doesn't sit well with me...A pitcher only pitches...that's only half the game, yet they aren't penalized, and short of Ozzie Smith (who has no business being in the HoF), no one's defensive abilities have been the deciding factor on an induction, so it surely shouldn't count against someone. And he's 11th all time in OPS? Multiple MVP awards? Power hitter who's led the league 4 times in OBP?

How can he not be a HoFer should be the question.

Morgoth

He was the leagues premier player for multiple seasons and had a great comeback at the end of his career. Maybe not first ballot but gets in as he never has had the steroid issue come up in his career unlike a Sosa.

kcballboy

To say a player doesn't get in because he's only played half the game well is a bit silly. I mean, look at Bill Mazeroski. A ferocious hitter, but his defense???

If there were a DH from the beginning, I can almost guarantee that Babe Ruth's big arse would have been one for the better part of his career.

Mike Piazza. Arguably the best hitting catcher of all time, and Hall worthy, but terrible on defense.

Does Thomas help his team more by not taking the field, or does Piazza help his team more by not being able to throw out steal attempts?

And don't even get me started on Roger Clemens' ability to hit a slider.

My point is that if we limited election to only players who excelled in all aspects of the game, there would be about a dozen members.

perkdog

There is no argument with raw power #'s

BobaFett72

pure raw, natural power, MVP, feared slugger, dominated the league. Lock for the HOF.

eyebone

IN. Not right away, and probably in a year that is comparatively weak, but he is deserving I think.

Eyebone

dude

So to take the DH issue to its logical conclusion - what about Edgar Martinez? They've even renamed the Designated Hitter Award as the Edgar Martinez Award. Of retired players who have come to the plate over 5000 times, only 15, including Edgar, have put together a lifetime BA of over .300, a lifetime OBP of over .400, and a lifetime SLG of over .500. Of the 15 retired players who have reached that level, 13 are in the Baseball Hall of Fame. Only Shoeless Joe Jackson, who was banned from baseball, and Edgar Martinez are not.

So the question that begs to be asked, does Edgar Martinez belong in the Hall of Fame?

stitzen

Of course Edgar belongs in, but he doesn't have the power numbers that Thomas has so he likely won't gain admittance.

perkdog

<< <i>Of course Edgar belongs in, but he doesn't have the power numbers that Thomas has so he likely won't gain admittance. >>




Agreed

stown

<< <i>So the question that begs to be asked, does Edgar Martinez belong in the Hall of Fame? >>



The only way he gets in is buying a ticket

stitzen

<< <i>
The only way he gets in is buying a ticket >>



Why do you feel this way? What about his accomplishments do you think do not merit induction into the hall? How was he any less dominating at his position that was Biggio?

perkdog

I see where this thread is going....

stitzen

I simply asked someone who felt the need to insult a great player like Edgar to back up his statement...no argument intended, simply want someone's insight as to why he felt the phrase 'the only way he gets in is with a ticket' was an appropriate response, and why he felt Biggio was so much more dominant than Edgar.

If he feels the need to resort to name calling and insults, that's on him.

thegemmintman

He got thrown out of the game too. Now there's a piece of trivia to impress your grandkiddies one day.

perkdog

<< <i>He got thrown out of the game too. Now there's a piece of trivia to impress your grandkiddies one day. >>




That will be a good trivia question down the road

BobaFett72

havent we determined that Stitzen is AZZtell?

DirtyHarry

500 HRs is no longer a HOF lock. The bar is now at 600. Sosa will get in despite rumors. I agree with the opinion that big time DH's are not HOF MLB candidates unless they have a well rounded career. Frank Thomas is a great semi-star compared to many HOF'ers. There are indeed individuals in the HOF that are questionable, relatively.
But he should not be viewed as a lock unless he keeps on truckin' for a few more years and is viewed as a machine who can deliver Championships.

BobaFett72

Dirty, Hairy

you continue to spew forth stuff from your mouth that smells like its from your butt.

"Frank Thomas is a great semi-star compared to many HOF'ers. "

get a freakin clue.

600 Homers as the bar for the HOF? Not very likely.

DirtyHarry

Fetacheeseman -- please don't share when you smell after you scratch.

BobaFett72

Dirty and ingrown Hairy... I think you'll find that your solidly in the minority (thank God for natural selection) Hopefully over a period of decades your genetic strain will be weeded out and expunged

basestealer

I think what he means by "600 is the bar" is that every player with 600 will be a HOF lock, whereas in the past everyone with 500 was a HOF lock. We know from McGwire's denial and the influx of players hitting 500 today, that 500 is no longer a guaranteed admission into the hall. That doesn't mean you have to hit 600 to get in, it just means if you do hit 600 you will for sure get in, and anything less will be judged with increased scrutiny than it was 20 years ago.

Sosa gets in because of his 600 homers, and because of his accomplishments as a Dominican, and his RBI total, the great homerun race of 1998, the first player to hit 60+ homers 3 times, etc. McGwire stays out because he isn't interesting race-wise, his career RBI, hits, runs, BA totals are pitiful compared to his homers, again he's a one dimensional player. And in today's era, for a one dimensional player to make it to the hall, they need 600 homers. That's what I think anyway. Steroid controversy didn't help either of these players, and even if they are later exonerated the fact that their name and the S word were ever mentioned in the same sentence will hurt them with many voters.

Comparing Thomas' career as a DH and being a one-dimensional player or half a player with a pitcher is absurd. Pitchers have always focused primarily on pitching. And let's not forget in the national league pitchers do hit--the DH rule was nothing more than a Hank Aaron clause, put there so he could keep knocking out homers without actually having to play the game of baseball. I don't like the DH rule, I don't care much for the American league, so the argument doesn't impress me, because I think pitchers SHOULD hit. I wouldn't penalize them because they happen to play in the American league, though.

I do penalize career designated hitters--because the DH role could very easily be filled by aging fielders late in their career, having played most of their years at a position. The DH doesn't have to be a lifelong aspirition. Canseco would make a good DH, and I imagine if Bonds were in the AL, he would too. Now. But not 10 years ago. I think it's only fair to judge players harshly, if they struggle with obesity (Thomas is 285?), cannot field, and just play DH the majority of their career. I know from experience that when you show up to high school or college, bat in hand, smashing out homers during BP--if you can't field, you don't make the team. You don't show up all fat and huge and with power but lacking in all fundamentals of the game of baseball and make a team. How this is happening in the MLB I have no idea. Unless, Vince McMahon is behind it...