Siege coinage...... does anyone here collect it or have an image to share? Old thead - new relic of

Swampboy

Just reading throught the ANA Museum Store Catalog and it contains a mention of siege coins from a new exhibit "Coins, Crowns, and Conflict...".
I know that coin collectors love stories about coinage; the circumstances of the minting, the politics, the metals etc.
I find it it hard to think of any more dramatic circumstance then that of a town's citizens turning over their jewelry and precious metal to mint coins to pay their defenders and, hopefully, keep them motivated. Now that's drama.
Anyone have a specimen to post?





edit:title

Doogy

ha! i was thinking of posting this same thread earlier today. i saw the ANA article and thought how cool those coins must be, and the history they could tell!


Doug

Swampboy

Do you Know?
Seige or obsidional (from the latin obsidere, “to besiege”) coinage, is emergency money produced during long sieges of cities during wartime. Siege money was produced to pay troops defending a city when normal money ran out during the siege. Soldiers had to be paid to ensure they were willing to fight, and to prevent them from taking what they needed from civilians. Payment was made with whatever gold or silver coinage could be collected and, when that ran out, by collecting any gold or silver jewelry and silverware from the townspeople and converting it into emergency coinage.


The above taken from the piece in the ANA catalog. It was accompanied by two images of siege coins from the battle of Newark 1646. I don't have a scanner or I'd post them.

MrEureka

Siege money is one of the coolest areas of numismatics. For a superb introduction to the field, get yourself a copy of Elsen's Lasser auction catalog. of March, 2007.

MrEureka

Spink's auction catalog for the Marshall collection is also well worth a look. These catalogs should be very inexpensive, if you can find them.

farthing

Won an 1814 Antwerp 5 Centimes last month on eBay - Link

Minted from captured cannon by the French while they were besieged in Antwerp under General Carnot during the Napoleonic War.

TwoKopeiki

<< <i>Spink's auction catalog for the Marshall collection >>



Thanks for that bit of info, Andy - I have a dealer acquaintance, who has a tons of old Spink catalogs which I will have to look through for the Marshall collection.

TwoKopeiki

I don't have any of the following in my collection, but looking to acquire, eventually:

Cartagena (Spain) - coins minted by a Federalist faction headed by the Generals Ferrer and Contreras, which opposed the Central Government in 1873, when they came under siege in Cartagena. Emergendy currency in silver with a value of five pesetas and ten reales were produced.

image courtesy of Coinarchives


Chi-Loe (Chile) - The largest island of the archipelago located in the southern part of Chile gives the name to the group. The Spanish commander Antonio Quintanilla held on to this territory for Spain until January 1826. There exists a cast coinage from this time, using as a model for the mould the 8 Realespieces from Lima and Potosi, with the addition of a horizontal countermark: Chi-Loe.

Gerona (Spain) - The "Duro" and five pesetas, equivalent to the 8 Reales, appeared when the French army besieged the city in June 1808 and March 1809, producing the two different types.

image courtesy of Coinarchives


This is only to name a few

MrEureka

Good luck finding an authentic Chiloe! According to Carlos Jara in his book "The Chiloe Peso", only one authentic specimen exists. And if it turns up, you'll need to outbid me!

TwoKopeiki

It's all in the hunt, Andy

I forgot to also mention Tarragona obsidional issues, which are relatively easy to find. These originated, as did many others at that time, with the French invasion during the reign of Ferdinand VII. They are dated 1809 and show a large variety of dies used.

All of the following images are from Coinarchives

MrEureka

I have one of those Tarragona pieces in brass. I assume it's an old counterfeit, probably intended to pass as money, but I really don't know. Has anyone here seen these before?

1jester

Fascinating thread.

CIVITAS

Tournai 1709 20 Sols



Ulm 1704 Gulden

CIVITAS

One more for good measure.

We sold one of these at CICF this year. I didn't photgraph ours, so this one will have to do.

Hapsburgs in Austria, Wien 1529 Ducat

MrEureka

Mexican War for Independence, Zongolica, 1812 8 Reales. Solid R-7.

TwoKopeiki

Nice one, Andy! It's a stunning, rare piece

I would argue if this is a siege piece, though. It's definitely an insurgent provisional issue, but I can't find whether the Royalist forces ever besieged Zongolica

Edit to add that I just can't stop staring at it

MrEureka

Nice one, Andy! It's a stunning, rare piece

Unfortunately, it's not mine. Then again, I'd rather wait for the Gerber specimen, which has a better strike and better color.

TwoKopeiki

Just wanted to add a little background information on Zongolica coinage for anyone interested, courtesy of Pradeau:



<< <i>Zongolica was a small town in the State of Ceracruz, where a lawyer, Don Refael Arguelles, and two Catholic prests, Don Mariano de las Fuentes Alarcon and Don Juan Moctezuma Cortes, planned to raise an army with which to assist in the movement for independence. By May 29, 1812, the followers of the two priests had attacked and captured the City of Orizaba, and with it 52,000 bales of tobacco. With the money realized from the sale of the 10,400,000 pounds of government-owned tobacco, the erstwhile priests, now self-appointed army chiefs, began minting their own coinage in the usual denominations of one-half, one, two, four and eight-reales pieces. As the town of Zongolica had been the seat of the insurrection and remained the base of operations, the money issued by Cortes and Alacon bore the name of Zongolica on the obverse of each coin. Medina considers these pieces proclamation medals, but Betts [as well as Calbeto] classifies them as coins. >>

1960NYGiants

Very interesting topic and some cool looking stuff.

Dumb question: Would the Irish gun money qualify as seige money?

TwoKopeiki

I would think that gun money would also fall under necessity coinage, just as siege coinage would... Although I'm not big on James II, perhaps someone with more information on this issue can chime-in.

MrEureka

I'll be in London next week and hope to make an offer on this little lot of coins from the English Civil War.




Hopefully, the British Museum needs the money.


From their site:



Silver siege money of the English Civil Wars

Issued by towns loyal to the king

From England, Carlisle (AD 1645), Scarborough (1645), Newark (1646), and Pontefract (1648)

One of the main tasks of an army in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries was breaking a siege, and military technology greatly reduced the ability of garrisons in cities to resist them. At times 'money of necessity' was issued among the besieged. This may have been to reassure mercenaries, or allow simply to allow everyday transactions.

In 1645-6, during the English Civil Wars, three royalist fortresses under siege produced coinage. When Carlisle was surrounded by a Scottish army, coinage worth £323 was produced. A 17-year-old resident, Leslie Tullie, recorded in his diary that 'an order was published to every citizen to bring in their plate [i.e. silverware] to be coyned, which they did chearfully'. Tullie's mother gave five spoons which weighed 6¼ oz of silver. Overall, 1,162 oz of silver was gathered on that occasion, producing £280 of coin.

During the year-long siege of Scarborough Castle, the commander Sir Hugh Chomley handed out the siege money himself, at a rate of sixpence a day, to encourage the morale of those who were repairing the walls.

The Newark coinage was produced during its third siege. It is of a very good quality, with weights of the correct official standards.

The Pontefract siege occurred during the so-called 'Second Civil War', a group of royalist rebellions that broke out in 1648. The later issues of the coin, struck in 1649 between the execution of Charles I (30 January), and the surrender of the castle (22 March), were changed to read 'for the son [Charles II], after the father's death'.

coinmickey

<< <i>Won an 1814 Antwerp 5 Centimes last month on eBay - Link

Minted from captured cannon by the French while they were besieged in Antwerp under General Carnot during the Napoleonic War. >>



I have the 10 Centimes version of this coin. Here's the Goldberg auction description for it....quite interesting:

In early 1814, the War of the Sixth Coalition against Napoleon was coming to an end. The coalition, composed of Austria, Russia, Prussia, the United Kingdom, Sweden, and several German states, had pushed Napoleon from their territories. Afterward, they entered France, eventually taking Paris and forcing Napoleon to surrender. This coin was struck by General Lazare Carnot, who was responsible for the city of Antwerp, an important naval base for Napoleon in the Low Countries. As the coalition entered Belgium in an attempt to liberate it from French rule, they besieged Antwerp. General Carnot, who produced this siege coinage from the cannon of Antwerp’s fortress, tenaciously held on, refusing to surrender despite French losses elsewhere. Only after Napoleon capitulated -- and at the urging of the Count of Artois, later King Charles X -- did Carnot surrender the city

Writersblock

Something I've always had some trouble understanding is where did th money go? They pay the troops, but the city is under siege, so it's not like the money is leaving the city. The only place to spend the money is in the city, so how does it disappear? OK, I can see some people hoarding it, but in that case you aren't going to be able to get other gold and silver from them to pay the troops either. And once the siege money debases down to base metal or even scrip, that should continue to circulate and wouldn't be hoarded.

Bailathacl

I'd speculate that since the military was paid in siege money, perhaps they had an interest in enforcing its legal tender status.

Writersblock

But they wouldn't be paid in siege money until the regular money was gone. That brings us back to where did the regular money go?

Swampboy

This countermarked piece served as ten cent piece during the Union seige of New Orleans spring of 1862.
It was recently posted on the U.S Coin Forum and is currently at ANACS being authenticated.



Rulau 105
Date (1862)
Metal : Cupronickel
Size : 19 mm

"J.B. Schiller conterstamp on face of U.S. 1860 Indian head cent. Large X counterstamp over ONE on reverse of cent. Plain edge. Only 8 known (Brunk 35777)
There are also scrip notes of this issuer, dated April 3, 1862, payable in Confederate currency, in 25 and 50-cent denomimations. New Orleans was under Union seige at that time; it fell to Admiral Farragut's forces May 1, 1862. The token is thought to represent 10 cents in value.
John B. Schiller, an importer of spirits, also became the proprietor of the Sazerac Coffee House in 1859. This saloon at 16 Royal Street was in the Merchants Exchange building and became the favorite watering hole of the local business community. As an importer, Schiller was the agent for Sazerac-de-Forge et Fils of Limoges, France, and served the Sazerac brand of cognac exclusively.
Schiller invented the 'Sazerac', or brandy co_ktail, the appetizer that made New Orleans famous.
Bill Manning, in "J.B. Schiller Counterstamp" (TAMS Journal, Feb. 1978), advanced the theory that other denominations may exist, counterstamped V, XV, or XX, but this was never substantiated by the find of any specimens.
The Schiller counterstamp was first reported in TAMS Journal for March 1963 by R Lindesmith in a letter to editor Russ Rulau. It was written up by Rulau in Coin World in 1963 also.
It is, properly, a siege piece and thus even more important. "


Standard Catalog of United States Tokens 1700-1900
by Russell Rulau

Hyperion

such good stuff

worldcoinguy

Cool resurrected topic. These are from Spain in early 1800s. I'm not sure they fit the true seige definition, but they are close.

Zohar

RobP

Newark shilling.