There were a significant number of changes that would be apparent to a typical collector. These will be discussed in the book where folks can review all the information in one place.
The Treasury Dept. might have made photos of a test piece from Philadelphia, but the photo has not been located. (I say “might” because that was normal procedure at the time, but nothing explicitly states that photos were made.)
Or maybe Prospero's line was really, "We are such dreams as stuff are made of."
There seems to be an inconsistency in the Dan Brown letter regarding Superintendent Fern Miller and the former Mint employee at the ANA HQ. The letter says that Fern Miller said that all 1964-D Peace dollars were returned. The unknown Denver Mint employee that shows up at ANA HQ says that one employee had spent the coins, told the Mint and wasn't fired. If both scenarios are true, then it seems that either Fern Miller did not know that a couple had been spent by a Mint employee or had intentionally mislead Dan Brown. Given the Mint's track record, which scenario is more likely?
Here's a thought. Is it better for numismatics for these to stay underground? Some mystery adds something of interesting to numismatics and the people in the know have seen them anyway.
The existence of a 1964-D Peace dollar is easy to prove – just publicly display one. However, proving that one does not exist is impossible.
I'd like to see one of these and know that the Treasury will not wantonly destroy these, like director Andrew unilaterally did to all pattern design hubs in 1910, or Stella Hackel did to large quantities of mint documents in the 1970s.
<< <i>Regarding those who report knowing someone who has seen one of the 1964-D dollars, the difficulty is that no one has come forward with a specimen of the coin for independent examination. Unfortunately, the “sightings” are consistently reported as second-hand events. I’ve never read an account that says: “I saw one on June 16 in the Pittsburgh Public Library coin collection." >>
You are correct: nobody is saying "I held one in my hand." But if I knew that the Secret Service would come banging down my door if I opened my mouth, I'd stay quiet too. It's a terrible shame that the government has concluded that any extant pieces were stolen. By jumping to such a conclusion, they are *preventing* witnesses from coming forward with evidence that might contradict the government's position. Anyone who has any personal knowledge of these coins is staying quiet because they are afraid of the government.
Has anyone interviewed Dan Brown (Breen's source for this information, according to Link 1)?
I heard they were making a French version of Medal of Honor. I wonder how many hotkeys it'll have for "surrender."
Still a mystery, but IMO some 1964-D Peace Dollars exist, and they're probably being held somewhere outside the U.S. RWB, I anxiously await your new book!
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
There seems to be an inconsistency in the Dan Brown letter regarding Superintendent Fern Miller and the former Mint employee at the ANA HQ. The letter says that Fern Miller said that all 1964-D Peace dollars were returned. The unknown Denver Mint employee that shows up at ANA HQ says that one employee had spent the coins, told the Mint and wasn't fired. If both scenarios are true, then it seems that either Fern Miller did not know that a couple had been spent by a Mint employee or had intentionally mislead Dan Brown. Given the Mint's track record, which scenario is more likely? >>
It is quite likely that the people who asked my visitor's friend where his two silver dollars were, and was told that they were spent, then asked him where he spent them, and then went to that location.
The Mint may indeed have recovered them all, or truely believe that they did. Thus, both my visitor and Ms. Miller may be telling the truth.
The point of my story is that I want to keep it on record that the Mint did release some of these coins, so that if one ever does surface someday, it cannot say "Well, we never released any of these, so therefore this coin must be stolen, so therefore we can seize it and destroy it" as they did for years with 1933 double eagles.
Tom DeLorey
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
There seems to be an inconsistency in the Dan Brown letter regarding Superintendent Fern Miller and the former Mint employee at the ANA HQ. The letter says that Fern Miller said that all 1964-D Peace dollars were returned. The unknown Denver Mint employee that shows up at ANA HQ says that one employee had spent the coins, told the Mint and wasn't fired. If both scenarios are true, then it seems that either Fern Miller did not know that a couple had been spent by a Mint employee or had intentionally mislead Dan Brown. Given the Mint's track record, which scenario is more likely? >>
It is quite likely that the people who asked my visitor's friend where his two silver dollars were, and was told that they were spent, then asked him where he spent them, and then went to that location.
The Mint may indeed have recovered them all, or truely believe that they did. Thus, both my visitor and Ms. Miller may be telling the truth.
The point of my story is that I want to keep it on record that the Mint did release some of these coins, so that if one ever does surface someday, it cannot say "Well, we never released any of these, so therefore this coin must be stolen, so therefore we can seize it and destroy it" as they did for years with 1933 double eagles.
Tom DeLorey >>
Hi Tom, thanks for laying out that scenario and I agree it is a possibility.
If you were able to find the letter from Dan Brown, would it be worthwhile to scan into a PDF and post it online? That way, at least the scan would be available in many places.
<< <i>My math may be a bit rusty but how can the mint make $45,000,000 in silver dollars out of $600,000 ? Were they buying silver way below market value? >>
Somebody else mentioned this to me and I told him that it did not make sense, but it just dawned on me that the $600,000 must be to cover the labor and materials such as dies and collars needed to make 45,000,000 coins, but not the bullion. D'OH! TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
$600,000 was included in the Treasury appropriation to cover the cost of preparation and production of 45 million standard silver dollars. This did not include the cost of approximately 40 million Troy ounces of fine silver, which the government already owned. (The silver had been purchased during the 1930s at between 40-cents and 60-cents per ounce. This was about 1/3 greater than the open market price. To help balance the budget, the silver was immediately revalued at $1.2929 per ounce, and the seigniorage credited to the Treasury Dept.)
<< <i>Were the 1964 and 1964-D Peace dollars struck using the same hub as the 1935-S (with fourth ray below "ONE"), or were other hub changes (other than the date) incorporated into the design ? Are there any actual photographs of 1964 Peace dollars ? >>
Q. David Bowers, an astute LA coin dealer, at the time said, " he has never seen a 64 dollar, and never talked to anyone who has, nor has anyone ever offered to sell me one".
Do you think if QDB (or any other leading dealer for that matter) had actually been allowed to see a 1964 Peace Dollar that he would have reported it?
<< <i>Do you think if QDB (or any other leading dealer for that matter) had actually been allowed to see a 1964 Peace Dollar that he would have reported it? >>
So the feds could confiscate it and destroy it? NO!!!
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<<Do you think if QDB (or any other leading dealer for that matter) had actually been allowed to see a 1964 Peace Dollar that he would have reported it?>>
No, I do not, just stating what the article said. He may have seen and held one, but who do you tell, no one.
I believe that someone was smart enough to hold a few back. I know I would, as soon word got out about the termination of the program.
The order to stop trial production of Peace dollars was telephoned to Denver on the afternoon of May 24, 1965. There was no advance notice. Superintendent Miller had earlier placed large orders for dollar dies and cancelled her normal order for subsidiary coin dies.
does anyone remember if Coin World did in fact publish a PHOTOGRAPH of the 1964 coin or just a sketch??
No photos have been published or publicly distributed of a legitimate 1964-D Peace dollar. There are a lot of photo composites, imitations and fantasy pieces.
The first substantial post-1965 hobby article on the coins was by Alan Herbert, “Answer the ’64 Dollar Question And You Can be $3,000 Richer” in Numismatic News Weekly, April 24, 1973, p.1. This, and the ANA ad by Bob Cohen, led to the press release that heads this thread and the addition of the threatening language in the last sentence of it.
I was wondering when Bob Cohen's name would appear in this thread......................
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
1) “What could the Treasury Dept and mint have done either in 1965 or later to avoid much of the continuing mistrust?”
2) “Does the threat of confiscation actually impede disclosure of any existing 1964-D Peace dollars? You will recall that the 1933 double eagles were subject not only to threat but actual confiscation and destruction, yet that has not dissuaded owners from coming forward.”
Is this worth anything ? Found a jar of them it in an old trunk in Grampa's attic.
1997 Matte Nickel strike thru U "Error Collector- I Love Dem Crazy Coins" "Money, what is money? It is loaned to a man; he comes into the world with nothing and he leaves with nothing." Billy Durant. Founder of General Motors. He died a pauper.
Maybe the 1964-D silver dollar is a numismatic "Elvis" - lots of imitators, lots of sightings, but the real "king" is gone?
Consider: The 1933 double eagle situation came to light in the 1940s and coins traded hands for a few years until the Treasury decided to confiscate them. So these coins were out of hiding within a decade of their production. The 1947 trial occurred while most of the principal participants were living and could be called as witnesses, if requested by the defense.
The 1964 dollars have been dormant since they were made in 1965. No one has displayed one, none are rumored to have been sold, and there have been no attempts to seize one. After 40+ years, and considering Dan Brown’s claim in 1973 that 100 to 300 examples left the Denver Mint, it seems odd to me that not one has shown up or been verified by a well-respected numismatist. Nearly all the Denver Mint employees from 1965 are deceased.
(Maybe there’s a good coin show display: Show all sorts of recreations and imitations in a case titled - “The 1964-D Peace Dollar – Imitations of a Coin No Collector Has Seen”)
I have not seen one, but someone whose word I trust told me that he has seen one and knows where it is. Despite my asking to see it, the owners will not show it to anyone else.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
Let's say, for the sake of arguing....the basis upon coinage that is "Circulated".
In the previous discussion, a "worker" had two of the " '64 Peace dollars " and spent them at a business.
This would again create the presidence that in order for the worker to have two of the dollars and be threatened termination of employment that the business "mint" would have had to accept current legal tender to purchase the aforementioned coins- therefore becoming "legal tender" prior to the coins leaving the business.
If the coins were not legally purchased, this would have been theft. Yet the Mint has RECORDED documentation of the transaction, else they would not have known the individual who purchased the said coins.
If the coins were stolen, then the presidence for NON-LEGAL TENDER would apply
the fact that the coins were spent that evening makes them circulated.
Just because a manufacturer creates a product and then recalls it does NOT MAKE IT ILLEGAL to own.
They accepted common legal tender for the product and therefore themselves made it legal tender.
If the product was created outside the scope of the government and the legal currency manufacturer, I can see where this would make it NON-LEGAL tender but yet again, this is not the case.
This is a very dumb ass thread. - Laura Sperber - Tuesday January 09, 2007 11:16 AM
Hell, I don't need to exercise.....I get enough just pushing my luck.
I do not doubt the comments of anyone who says they have heard or known of someone who has seen a real coin. But the thing has taken on the same kind of existence as Big Foot or Yeti.
I, too have been told by reputable people they exist. I’ve also encountered a nicely altered 1934-D entirely consistent with 1934 dollar production, and completely missing characteristics of a 1964-D dollar. (I’ve never seen a 1936 Peace dollar, either. But now that it is known that dies were made and sent to Philadelphia and Denver, I’m sure an imitation will turn up.)
Good argument eyoung429, but so far no one has found any documentation to show that the "buy two" scenario occurred. So far, available records contain no documents saying that an order to release the coins was issued. But one was issued to halt trial production and then, two days later, to destroy the trial pieces.
Most production trial pieces either get dumped into circulation when the design is approved for release (as in the 200,000 1922 low relief Peace dollars), or destroyed (as in the 1916 Mercury dimes made in August).
Ahhhh, but if the Mint HAS declared that there was the sale of the coins to employees....my argument still stands...for they would have had to have the sale to order the return of the coinage...correct?
I wasn't aware that the subject in the previous discussion was not substantiated. My mistake.
This is a very dumb ass thread. - Laura Sperber - Tuesday January 09, 2007 11:16 AM
Hell, I don't need to exercise.....I get enough just pushing my luck.
Once again, a thread involving a "fantasy" piece which has escaped the US Mint's (lack of) security. The government (specifically the Treasury Dept) needs to just declare a total amnesty on all "patterns, trials, unauthorized mintages (i.e. 1913 lib nick), as well as any and all released/recalled coins" then go about a very stringent tightening of security involving any future patterns, trial strikes, etc etc. OR....and I hate to say this in view of the historical significance of such pieces, confiscate all known "unauthorized issues and strikes". It is truly asinine of the government to allow or disallow certain patterns or coinage on each individual basis......it is either allowed or not, black or white, and be done with it!!
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on; I don't do these things to other people, I require the same from them."
Yep. If the mint had stated that coins were sold or exchanged to employees, even if they had later been recalled, then your argument would be helpful to someone defending an owner. If that had occurred, we'd probably be seeing the '64-D Peace dollar in auctions. But...sadly...no documentary evidence has been located, nor have any signed statements turned up.
Re: maddogale's comments. There is a built in conflict between consistency, past practice and past actions and it would seem that the best way around the quicksand is a kind of "amnesty" or similar program giving legal status to such items dated prior to some date. However, one must be careful not to link unrelated categories in the same legislation. For example 1933 $20 and 1964 dollars are not the same critter and should never be lumped together – even if the Treasury folks would like to do it this way.
Oddly, it seems that quite a few pattern and experimental coins were legitimately released by mint or superior Treasury Dept. authorities. We all know that some were sold is sets, also others were sold individually for their metal value. Some were exchanged for coins needed for the Mint Collection – which was a permitted activity. Additional pieces were sold at face value to officials and others were sold for face value to outside contractors for equipment testing. The key point is that an appropriate mint or treasury official (or higher authority) had to authorize the sale or distribution – and this appears to have been the case in nearly every instance.
We are aiming for fall of this year – depends on how fast good variety photos (VAMs plus others) can be obtained, some other bits of research done, and the usual publication details. The hobby has been without a comprehensive Peace dollar resource for decades, so a few weeks probably won't matter. I am also confident that no one else has access to the depth and breadth of historical and background information. (For example, we’ve interviewed everyone still living who was connected with the silver dollar work in 1965. We also have the original daily production figures for the coins from 1921-1935 for each mint, etc. etc.) The book will keep readers busy either looking for significant varieties, understanding the origin and history, or speculating about the 1964 coins.
Yes, you did. Our agents interviewed your 3rd grade teacher but she said you could not have taken one of the new dollar coins. She said you were an honest child and a fine scholar, and that your only had 55-cents for lunch and had already spent it.
Should start a discussion during an evening while sharing a cold-brew at the Summer Seminar...
There are a few people there that could make it very interesting.
I have a questions; Were the dies prepared from original plasters from the 20's and the date added later? Can anyone tell me details on the design phase for this issue?
Because to Err is Human. I specialize in Errors, Minting, Counterfeit Detection & Grading. Computer-aided grading, counterfeit detection, recognition and imaging.
LostSisler: Re: Were the dies prepared from original plasters from the 20's and the date added later? Can anyone tell me details on the design phase for this issue?
All Peace dollar hubs, master dies and obverse dies for all versions of the coin were destroyed in 1937 by Engraver John Sinnock following the Roosevelt Administration’s decision not to produce silver dollars in 1936 and to abandon the denomination. All that remained were some reverse dies for 1934, 1935 and 1936 at Denver and Philadelphia.
There is no documentation stating whether the 1964 hubs were prepared from deFrancisci’s original low relief models of Jan./Feb. 1922, or if Engraver Gilroy Roberts created new models imitating deFrancisci’s work. For now, we can only presume these models existed at least as late as 1965. We also know that the first set of high relief bronze casts from 1921 exist, and also that the obverse was marred by casting bubbles and scribe lines. These were cleaned up on the hub by Engraver George Morgan in 1921. The original 1921 reverse cast included the broken sword, and this was cut out of the hub/master die by Morgan. Given the coin shortage and production pressures in 1963 when the hubs were cut, my opinion is that Roberts used new reductions from deFrancisci’s 1922 low relief models via new galvanos. Work on the Kennedy half dollar pushed aside the Peace dollar and by the time things got back to normal Roberts had decided to retire from the government (effective Oct 8, 1964). Frank Gasparo was appointed acting engraver until Senate confirmation in Feb. 1965.
Engraver Frank Gasparo (Roberts’ successor) and assistant Albino used the hubs made by Roberts to prepare working dies. This was a large effort as evidence from May 1965 indicates that several hundred die sets were ordered by the Denver Mint and that in August a large number of incomplete dies were ordered destroyed.
Information on what the Philadelphia Mint Engraving Department did is scarce, primarily because virtually all of the department records are missing – for the entire life of the US Mint.
<< <i>I find it hard to believe that with all the numismatists around these boards that no one has ever seen one in hand. Only hearsay. I'm not buying it. >>
One of the major reason why it is all "hearsay" is because no one wants to risk being questioned as to who the owners are. So even if someone has seen one in person they are not likely to admit it and instead attribute it to some unnamed third person. If someone opens up and says "Yes I saw one." or "I know where one is." they open themselves up to questioning by government officials as to who has it.
Both of the two people who have told me they have seen them stated that there are some hub differences between the 64 and the 34, 35 issues. Most notably on the reverse. They would not go into specifics.
I know for a fact that there are some out there. Somebody I know and trust held one in his hand in the mid 70's
please explain how you "know for a fact" that there are some out there. thanks.
this coin and it's purported sightings fit nicely into the myth and urban legend category. it's always a friend of a friend or someone telling someone that they saw one. it'd be nice for one to finally surface and be promptly confiscated, work it's way through the courts and be titled to the owner, but i seriously doubt it will ever happen and the odds are that it can't happen for obvious reasons.
<< <i> it'd be nice for one to finally surface and be promptly confiscated, work it's way through the courts and be titled to the owner, >>
The problem is the risk of it NOT being titled to the owner and the expense of fighting to be allowed to keep it. What would stop a lot of speculation would be if one were to be donated to the Smithsonian. At least that would prove that they do exist. But the owner is still out the coin.
Best would be if it could be set up quietly for a few experts and a representative from the numismatic press to meet and one be anonymously submitted for examination, photography, etc and then let it disappear again. That way it could be confirmed that it exists without risking the coin and its owner.
A simple, practical solution would be for Director Moy to state:
"The speculation and uncertainty over silver dollars dated 1964-D, a 40-year old coin, and other pattern, experimental and trial pieces is demeaning to coin collectors and distracting to the U.S. Mint and Treasury Department. Continued controversy brings no value to the Mint or anyone else. The passage of time and destruction of vital documents has rendered it impossible to objectively assess whether or not any such items left custody of the U.S. Mint by authorized or unauthorized means. It is something we need to put behind us.
“Therefore, it shall be the policy of the U.S. Mint that all pattern, experimental, trial and similar pieces of disputable origin produced before January 1, 1980 shall be considered the personal property of the current possessors. The U.S. Mint waives all past, current and future claim of ownership to such pieces. This includes all coin-like and medal-like pieces as described in published references on such items as well as items of uncertain or disputed origin including but not limited to silver dollars dated 1804, Trade dollars dated 1884 and 1885, five-cent pieces of the Liberty head design dated 1913, one-cent pieces dated 1952 with a revised portrait of President Lincoln, silver dollars dated 1964-D of the Peace design, one-cent pieces struck in aluminum dated 1974 and 1975.
“Additionally, it shall be the policy of the U.S. Mint to henceforth provide to the Smithsonian National Numismatic Collection, as an intergovernmental transfer in perpetuity, at least one example of every experimental and pattern piece struck by the U.S. Mint at the time the pieces are produced.”
Comments
The Treasury Dept. might have made photos of a test piece from Philadelphia, but the photo has not been located. (I say “might” because that was normal procedure at the time, but nothing explicitly states that photos were made.)
Or maybe Prospero's line was really, "We are such dreams as stuff are made of."
Russ, NCNE
…but, we might not want to know it.
There seems to be an inconsistency in the Dan Brown letter regarding Superintendent Fern Miller and the former Mint employee at the ANA HQ. The letter says that Fern Miller said that all 1964-D Peace dollars were returned. The unknown Denver Mint employee that shows up at ANA HQ says that one employee had spent the coins, told the Mint and wasn't fired. If both scenarios are true, then it seems that either Fern Miller did not know that a couple had been spent by a Mint employee or had intentionally mislead Dan Brown. Given the Mint's track record, which scenario is more likely?
However, proving that one does not exist is impossible.
I'd like to see one of these and know that the Treasury will not wantonly destroy these, like director Andrew unilaterally did to all pattern design hubs in 1910, or Stella Hackel did to large quantities of mint documents in the 1970s.
<< <i>Regarding those who report knowing someone who has seen one of the 1964-D dollars, the difficulty is that no one has come forward with a specimen of the coin for independent examination. Unfortunately, the “sightings” are consistently reported as second-hand events. I’ve never read an account that says: “I saw one on June 16 in the Pittsburgh Public Library coin collection." >>
You are correct: nobody is saying "I held one in my hand." But if I knew that the Secret Service would come banging down my door if I opened my mouth, I'd stay quiet too. It's a terrible shame that the government has concluded that any extant pieces were stolen. By jumping to such a conclusion, they are *preventing* witnesses from coming forward with evidence that might contradict the government's position. Anyone who has any personal knowledge of these coins is staying quiet because they are afraid of the government.
Has anyone interviewed Dan Brown (Breen's source for this information, according to Link 1)?
RWB, I anxiously await your new book!
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>Thanks for the links ddink.
There seems to be an inconsistency in the Dan Brown letter regarding Superintendent Fern Miller and the former Mint employee at the ANA HQ. The letter says that Fern Miller said that all 1964-D Peace dollars were returned. The unknown Denver Mint employee that shows up at ANA HQ says that one employee had spent the coins, told the Mint and wasn't fired. If both scenarios are true, then it seems that either Fern Miller did not know that a couple had been spent by a Mint employee or had intentionally mislead Dan Brown. Given the Mint's track record, which scenario is more likely? >>
It is quite likely that the people who asked my visitor's friend where his two silver dollars were, and was told that they were spent, then asked him where he spent them, and then went to that location.
The Mint may indeed have recovered them all, or truely believe that they did. Thus, both my visitor and Ms. Miller may be telling the truth.
The point of my story is that I want to keep it on record that the Mint did release some of these coins, so that if one ever does surface someday, it cannot say "Well, we never released any of these, so therefore this coin must be stolen, so therefore we can seize it and destroy it" as they did for years with 1933 double eagles.
Tom DeLorey
<< <i>
<< <i>Thanks for the links ddink.
There seems to be an inconsistency in the Dan Brown letter regarding Superintendent Fern Miller and the former Mint employee at the ANA HQ. The letter says that Fern Miller said that all 1964-D Peace dollars were returned. The unknown Denver Mint employee that shows up at ANA HQ says that one employee had spent the coins, told the Mint and wasn't fired. If both scenarios are true, then it seems that either Fern Miller did not know that a couple had been spent by a Mint employee or had intentionally mislead Dan Brown. Given the Mint's track record, which scenario is more likely? >>
It is quite likely that the people who asked my visitor's friend where his two silver dollars were, and was told that they were spent, then asked him where he spent them, and then went to that location.
The Mint may indeed have recovered them all, or truely believe that they did. Thus, both my visitor and Ms. Miller may be telling the truth.
The point of my story is that I want to keep it on record that the Mint did release some of these coins, so that if one ever does surface someday, it cannot say "Well, we never released any of these, so therefore this coin must be stolen, so therefore we can seize it and destroy it" as they did for years with 1933 double eagles.
Tom DeLorey >>
Hi Tom, thanks for laying out that scenario and I agree it is a possibility.
If you were able to find the letter from Dan Brown, would it be worthwhile to scan into a PDF and post it online? That way, at least the scan would be available in many places.
<< <i>My math may be a bit rusty but how can the mint make $45,000,000 in silver dollars out of $600,000 ? Were they buying silver way below market value? >>
Somebody else mentioned this to me and I told him that it did not make sense, but it just dawned on me that the $600,000 must be to cover the labor and materials such as dies and collars needed to make 45,000,000 coins, but not the bullion.
D'OH!
TD
<< <i>The truth is out there™.
Russ, NCNE >>
You said it.
<< <i>
<< <i>Were the 1964 and 1964-D Peace dollars struck using the same hub as the 1935-S (with fourth ray below "ONE"), or were other hub changes (other than the date) incorporated into the design ? Are there any actual photographs of 1964 Peace dollars ? >>
Daniel, do you have a project in mind?
No comment.
<< <i>
Wicked.
Collector of Early 20th Century U.S. Coinage.
ANA Member R-3147111
does anyone remember if Coin World did in fact publish a PHOTOGRAPH of the 1964 coin or just a sketch??
thanks Alan
BestDealsTVshow.com
www.AlanBestBuys.com
www.VegasBestBuys.com
Alan, couldn't find a pic, but I did find a cool article about mystery coins, in a June 1975 edition of Coinage.
All that was left of my Grandfather's coin collection, was a box of coin mags. A cousin got his filthy hands on it, and sold it all.
The article talks about the 64D Peace dollar, 1913 V nickel, 1933 $20 St. Gaudens, 1894 S Barber dime, etc....
In the article it talks about LBJ, giving the thumbs up to start production in Denver.
Eva B. Adams, Mint director at the time, claimed, " the only dollars that left the Denver Mint, were 2 sent to Washington for examination". Of
the 30 trial strikes, 28 were destroyed immediately, according to Mint records.
The article goes on to say, dealers at the time were advertising these coins for sale in anticipation of the release, at prices
up to $7.50 a piece. I'll buy these all day long @ $7.50 a piece!
Q. David Bowers, an astute LA coin dealer, at the time said, " he has never seen a 64 dollar, and never talked to anyone who has - nor
has anyone ever offered to sell me one".
I believe that someone was smart enough to hold a few back. I know I would, as soon word got out about the termination of the program.
Are they out there hidden somewhere? Will they ever surface?
One thing is for sure, if one ever comes to market, the whole world will know
Have a great holiday.
Do you think if QDB (or any other leading dealer for that matter) had actually been allowed to see a 1964 Peace Dollar that he would have reported it?
roadrunner
<< <i>Do you think if QDB (or any other leading dealer for that matter) had actually been allowed to see a 1964 Peace Dollar that he would have reported it? >>
So the feds could confiscate it and destroy it? NO!!!
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
No, I do not, just stating what the article said. He may have seen and held one, but who do you tell, no one.
The order to stop trial production of Peace dollars was telephoned to Denver on the afternoon of May 24, 1965. There was no advance notice. Superintendent Miller had earlier placed large orders for dollar dies and cancelled her normal order for subsidiary coin dies.
does anyone remember if Coin World did in fact publish a PHOTOGRAPH of the 1964 coin or just a sketch??
No photos have been published or publicly distributed of a legitimate 1964-D Peace dollar. There are a lot of photo composites, imitations and fantasy pieces.
The first substantial post-1965 hobby article on the coins was by Alan Herbert, “Answer the ’64 Dollar Question And You Can be $3,000 Richer” in Numismatic News Weekly, April 24, 1973, p.1. This, and the ANA ad by Bob Cohen, led to the press release that heads this thread and the addition of the threatening language in the last sentence of it.
would appear in this thread......................
1) “What could the Treasury Dept and mint have done either in 1965 or later to avoid much of the continuing mistrust?”
2) “Does the threat of confiscation actually impede disclosure of any existing 1964-D Peace dollars? You will recall that the 1933 double eagles were subject not only to threat but actual confiscation and destruction, yet that has not dissuaded owners from coming forward.”
Is this worth anything ? Found a jar of them it in an old trunk in Grampa's attic.
1997 Matte Nickel strike thru U
"Error Collector- I Love Dem Crazy Coins"
"Money, what is money? It is loaned to a man; he comes into the world with nothing and he leaves with nothing." Billy Durant. Founder of General Motors. He died a pauper.
But, until the coin appears, I think I will have to defer to RWB's close scrutiny of the archival record
Consider:
The 1933 double eagle situation came to light in the 1940s and coins traded hands for a few years until the Treasury decided to confiscate them. So these coins were out of hiding within a decade of their production. The 1947 trial occurred while most of the principal participants were living and could be called as witnesses, if requested by the defense.
The 1964 dollars have been dormant since they were made in 1965. No one has displayed one, none are rumored to have been sold, and there have been no attempts to seize one. After 40+ years, and considering Dan Brown’s claim in 1973 that 100 to 300 examples left the Denver Mint, it seems odd to me that not one has shown up or been verified by a well-respected numismatist. Nearly all the Denver Mint employees from 1965 are deceased.
(Maybe there’s a good coin show display: Show all sorts of recreations and imitations in a case titled - “The 1964-D Peace Dollar – Imitations of a Coin No Collector Has Seen”)
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
In the previous discussion, a "worker" had two of the " '64 Peace dollars " and spent them at a business.
This would again create the presidence that in order for the worker to have two of the dollars and be threatened termination of employment that the business "mint" would have had to accept current legal tender to purchase the aforementioned coins- therefore becoming "legal tender" prior to the coins leaving the business.
If the coins were not legally purchased, this would have been theft. Yet the Mint has RECORDED documentation of the transaction, else they would not have known the individual who purchased the said coins.
If the coins were stolen, then the presidence for NON-LEGAL TENDER would apply
the fact that the coins were spent that evening makes them circulated.
Just because a manufacturer creates a product and then recalls it does NOT MAKE IT ILLEGAL to own.
They accepted common legal tender for the product and therefore themselves made it legal tender.
If the product was created outside the scope of the government and the legal currency manufacturer, I can see where this would make it NON-LEGAL tender but yet again, this is not the case.
Hell, I don't need to exercise.....I get enough just pushing my luck.
I, too have been told by reputable people they exist. I’ve also encountered a nicely altered 1934-D entirely consistent with 1934 dollar production, and completely missing characteristics of a 1964-D dollar. (I’ve never seen a 1936 Peace dollar, either. But now that it is known that dies were made and sent to Philadelphia and Denver, I’m sure an imitation will turn up.)
Most production trial pieces either get dumped into circulation when the design is approved for release (as in the 200,000 1922 low relief Peace dollars), or destroyed (as in the 1916 Mercury dimes made in August).
I wasn't aware that the subject in the previous discussion was not substantiated. My mistake.
Hell, I don't need to exercise.....I get enough just pushing my luck.
Re: maddogale's comments. There is a built in conflict between consistency, past practice and past actions and it would seem that the best way around the quicksand is a kind of "amnesty" or similar program giving legal status to such items dated prior to some date. However, one must be careful not to link unrelated categories in the same legislation. For example 1933 $20 and 1964 dollars are not the same critter and should never be lumped together – even if the Treasury folks would like to do it this way.
Oddly, it seems that quite a few pattern and experimental coins were legitimately released by mint or superior Treasury Dept. authorities. We all know that some were sold is sets, also others were sold individually for their metal value. Some were exchanged for coins needed for the Mint Collection – which was a permitted activity. Additional pieces were sold at face value to officials and others were sold for face value to outside contractors for equipment testing. The key point is that an appropriate mint or treasury official (or higher authority) had to authorize the sale or distribution – and this appears to have been the case in nearly every instance.
What is the expected publication date for your new book about Peace dollars?
Should start a discussion during an evening while sharing a cold-brew at the Summer Seminar...
There are a few people there that could make it very interesting.
I have a questions;
Were the dies prepared from original plasters from the 20's and the date added later?
Can anyone tell me details on the design phase for this issue?
I specialize in Errors, Minting, Counterfeit Detection & Grading.
Computer-aided grading, counterfeit detection, recognition and imaging.
Re: Were the dies prepared from original plasters from the 20's and the date added later? Can anyone tell me details on the design phase for this issue?
All Peace dollar hubs, master dies and obverse dies for all versions of the coin were destroyed in 1937 by Engraver John Sinnock following the Roosevelt Administration’s decision not to produce silver dollars in 1936 and to abandon the denomination. All that remained were some reverse dies for 1934, 1935 and 1936 at Denver and Philadelphia.
There is no documentation stating whether the 1964 hubs were prepared from deFrancisci’s original low relief models of Jan./Feb. 1922, or if Engraver Gilroy Roberts created new models imitating deFrancisci’s work. For now, we can only presume these models existed at least as late as 1965. We also know that the first set of high relief bronze casts from 1921 exist, and also that the obverse was marred by casting bubbles and scribe lines. These were cleaned up on the hub by Engraver George Morgan in 1921. The original 1921 reverse cast included the broken sword, and this was cut out of the hub/master die by Morgan. Given the coin shortage and production pressures in 1963 when the hubs were cut, my opinion is that Roberts used new reductions from deFrancisci’s 1922 low relief models via new galvanos. Work on the Kennedy half dollar pushed aside the Peace dollar and by the time things got back to normal Roberts had decided to retire from the government (effective Oct 8, 1964). Frank Gasparo was appointed acting engraver until Senate confirmation in Feb. 1965.
Engraver Frank Gasparo (Roberts’ successor) and assistant Albino used the hubs made by Roberts to prepare working dies. This was a large effort as evidence from May 1965 indicates that several hundred die sets were ordered by the Denver Mint and that in August a large number of incomplete dies were ordered destroyed.
Information on what the Philadelphia Mint Engraving Department did is scarce, primarily because virtually all of the department records are missing – for the entire life of the US Mint.
<< <i>I find it hard to believe that with all the numismatists around these boards that no one has ever seen one in hand. Only hearsay. I'm not buying it. >>
One of the major reason why it is all "hearsay" is because no one wants to risk being questioned as to who the owners are. So even if someone has seen one in person they are not likely to admit it and instead attribute it to some unnamed third person. If someone opens up and says "Yes I saw one." or "I know where one is." they open themselves up to questioning by government officials as to who has it.
Both of the two people who have told me they have seen them stated that there are some hub differences between the 64 and the 34, 35 issues. Most notably on the reverse. They would not go into specifics.
(Got to remember to spell-check BEFORE posting.)
please explain how you "know for a fact" that there are some out there. thanks.
this coin and it's purported sightings fit nicely into the myth and urban legend category. it's always a friend of a friend or someone telling someone that they saw one. it'd be nice for one to finally surface and be promptly confiscated, work it's way through the courts and be titled to the owner, but i seriously doubt it will ever happen and the odds are that it can't happen for obvious reasons.
<< <i> it'd be nice for one to finally surface and be promptly confiscated, work it's way through the courts and be titled to the owner, >>
The problem is the risk of it NOT being titled to the owner and the expense of fighting to be allowed to keep it. What would stop a lot of speculation would be if one were to be donated to the Smithsonian. At least that would prove that they do exist. But the owner is still out the coin.
Best would be if it could be set up quietly for a few experts and a representative from the numismatic press to meet and one be anonymously submitted for examination, photography, etc and then let it disappear again. That way it could be confirmed that it exists without risking the coin and its owner.
"The speculation and uncertainty over silver dollars dated 1964-D, a 40-year old coin, and other pattern, experimental and trial pieces is demeaning to coin collectors and distracting to the U.S. Mint and Treasury Department. Continued controversy brings no value to the Mint or anyone else. The passage of time and destruction of vital documents has rendered it impossible to objectively assess whether or not any such items left custody of the U.S. Mint by authorized or unauthorized means. It is something we need to put behind us.
“Therefore, it shall be the policy of the U.S. Mint that all pattern, experimental, trial and similar pieces of disputable origin produced before January 1, 1980 shall be considered the personal property of the current possessors. The U.S. Mint waives all past, current and future claim of ownership to such pieces. This includes all coin-like and medal-like pieces as described in published references on such items as well as items of uncertain or disputed origin including but not limited to silver dollars dated 1804, Trade dollars dated 1884 and 1885, five-cent pieces of the Liberty head design dated 1913, one-cent pieces dated 1952 with a revised portrait of President Lincoln, silver dollars dated 1964-D of the Peace design, one-cent pieces struck in aluminum dated 1974 and 1975.
“Additionally, it shall be the policy of the U.S. Mint to henceforth provide to the Smithsonian National Numismatic Collection, as an intergovernmental transfer in perpetuity, at least one example of every experimental and pattern piece struck by the U.S. Mint at the time the pieces are produced.”