How many career saves should be the benchmark for HoF induction?

digicat

Hitters who hit 3000 career hits or 500 career home runs, and pitchers with 300 wins are usually considered locks for the HoF.

How many saves do you think would be HoF worthy? Are saves even a measure of greatness?

So far, the top 10 career saves list has..

1) Trevor Hoffman - 495 saves - active
2) Lee Smith - 478 saves - on HoF ballot (5 years)
3) John Franco - 424 saves - elegable for HoF in 2011
4) Mariano Rivera - 416 saves - active
5) Dennis Eckersley - 390 saves - HoF
6) Jeff Reardon - 367 saves- fell off HoF ballot in 1st year
7) Randy Myers - 347 saves - fell off HoF ballot in 1st year
8) Rollie Fingers - 341 saves - HoF
9) Billy Wagner - 335 saves - active
10) John Wetteland - 330 saves - fell off HoF ballot in 1st year
...
20) Bruce Sutter - 300 saves - HoF
...
31) Hoyt Wilhelm - 227 saves - HoF

shagrotn77

I don't know about a benchmark, but I think Lee Smith should definitely have been elected already. He retired as the all-time saves leader, but somehow he's yet to come close to enshrinement. The fact that Hoffman passed him last year and Rivera is close behind is not going to help his chances either. Hopefully he'll get in, and won't have to wait as long as Gossage, who's a shoo-in for induction next year.

As for active closers, Rivera and Hoffman are locks IMO. I don't think anyone else (aside from newbies without much experience, like Papelbon or Nathan) will make it. Ex-closer John Smoltz is also Hall-bound. No doubt about it.

CDsNuts

It seems completely arbitrary. Obviously Eck is in because he spent some years as a decent starter and was the anchor of the A's while they had their mini-dynasty. Also, Mariano seems like a lock because of his dominance and all the big games he's pitched in, and being a Yankee doesn't hurt. I really don't think one can rationally explain why Sutter and Fingers are in, and Lee Smith, Jeff Reardon and John Franco are out (assuming Franco doesn't get in). I think a lot of it has to do with the persona of the player, which is wierd because there's no other baseball position where persona comes into play when evaluating a guy's career. It's almost like the more recognizable a guy is, the more memorable he is, but to me it makes no sense that Lee Smith retired as the record-holder in a major career stat, really the only stat (other than era I guess) a closer is evaluated on, and didn't get in.

I don't think you can put any number of saves down as an automatic induction, but if I had to guess I'd say 600. Most people now think Hoffman is a lock, but people also felt that way about Lee Smith when he was winding down. I think Hoffman has at least 5 good years ahead of him and will get there, but if he retired now I'm not so sure.

Lee

Brian48

I wonder where this leaves John Smoltz. Someone who was equally good in either role, but because of all the time split between being a closer and starter, he wasn't able to accumulate HOF numbers in either (if stand-alone SAVEs vs WINs are considered).

bigfische

I think Smoltz gets in. One of the greaterst post season pitchers in the modern era.

JTB

A pitcher comes in with a lead and gets three outs from three tired batters who are ready to go home. Why is this stat even counted?

shagrotn77

<< <i> I really don't think one can rationally explain why Sutter and Fingers are in, and Lee Smith, Jeff Reardon and John Franco are out (assuming Franco doesn't get in). >>



Sutter is in because he was considered both a dominant force (I think he finished top 10 in MVP voting 4 or 5 times?) and the father of the splitfinger fastball. He didn't create the pitch, but he's credited with perfecting it. Fingers retired as the all-time saves leader (which obviously meant more for him than it did for Smith). Fingers also played for some tremendous A's teams, and I'm sure that helped a lot.



<< <i>I wonder where this leaves John Smoltz. >>



See Dennis Eckerlsey.

onefasttalon

I think Smoltz gets in. One of the greaterst post season pitchers in the modern era.

... not to mention ALL that he's done for the game/sport of baseball off the field. It would be hard to find many
athletes that have done as much as he has for the community off the playing field.

CDsNuts

I guess I worded my thoughts incorrectly. I understand the arguments for Sutter and Fingers, but you could pose similarly strong arguments for Smith, Reardon and Franco, and Gossage for that matter.

Lee

CDsNuts

JTB, If you've ever been a die-hard fan of a team that regularly blows leads in late innings, you'd understand how important a strong closer is. Example- A good closer blows maybe 5-7 games a year. A bad closer blows 10-15. Therefore a good closer is roughly worth 8-10 wins per year vs. a bad closer.

Lee

digicat

<< <i>A pitcher comes in with a lead and gets three outs from three tired batters who are ready to go home. Why is this stat even counted? >>



Because it's important. Most major league teams aren't "ready to go home" when they're down in the 9th, unless they 1) suck, 2) are getting owned.

drewsef

I don't think there's a benchmark for saves, but think Hoffman, Lee Smith, Rivera should all be in the HOF.

dude

<<

<< A pitcher comes in with a lead and gets three outs from three tired batters who are ready to go home. Why is this stat even counted? >>



Because it's important. Most major league teams aren't "ready to go home" when they're down in the 9th, unless they 1) suck, 2) are getting owned.>>



I take the middle ground on this. It's a stat worth tracking, but when you realize that a save means

1. Holding up to a lead of no more than three runs and has the opportunity to pitch for at least one inning (pitching one inning is the strong majority of situations for a closer these days).

2. He enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, at bat, or on deck (somewhat rare)

3. He pitches three or more innings regardless of the lead and the official scorer credits him with a save (extremely rare for a closer).


So in most cases, a closer has 1 inning to get out 3 batters to protect either a 1, 2 or 3 run lead. He can face the weak part of the batting order or the strong part or whats in between. I'm not going to say that it's a totally overrated position, but I do think only the truly great ones should go to the Hall like Hoffman and Rivera assuming they go over 500. Lee Smith is a very borderline case and rest like Franco and Reardon shouldn't be elected. I still can't figure out why Sutter got in. If he's the threshold for getting in, then the Hall will be overloaded with closers from now to eternity.

Writer11

Gossage will be in in 2008. Almost a guarantee.

I think the knock against Lee Smith is that he was never the No. 1 closer in the game. He was never a guy that players particularly feared. Is the fact that Smith had 478 saves over a long career more impressive than someone like Sutter, who was was the best closer in the game for a short period, and recorded 300+ saves? That's the burning question.

rbdjr1

Rollie Fingers?

Well he got his ticket punched for having pitching's coolest mustash!

rd

MorrellMan

I've never thought closers are HOFers. I still don't.
How about a benchmark for pinch hitters? How about set-up men? Without 1 or 2 strong innings from the middle reliever, there'd be no need for a closer.
How about bullpen catchers?
One of these days people are going to be talking about the greatest BP pitcher ever....

GDM67

<< <i>A pitcher comes in with a lead and gets three outs from three tired batters who are ready to go home. Why is this stat even counted? >>

That's the LaRussa-era Save. Look up what Fingers, Sutter and Gossage did. It was often multiple innings of work, in pressure situations. Like Lee wrote, anybody who thinks a closer isn't important has never had to sit for a summer and watch the likes of Dan Kolb or Chris Reitsma blow lead after lead.

<< <i>I think the knock against Lee Smith is that he was never the No. 1 closer in the game. He was never a guy that players particularly feared. >>

Anybody who thinks that never saw him pitch and has never spoken to the men he pitched to.

<< <i>I think Smoltz gets in. One of the greaterst post season pitchers in the modern era.

... not to mention ALL that he's done for the game/sport of baseball off the field. It would be hard to find many
athletes that have done as much as he has for the community off the playing field. >>

Something that actually matters in Baseball.

Anybody who thinks Smoltz isn't a HOFer is really hidebound to obsolete statistical formulae and irrelevant benchmarks.

Stone193

So I don't parse words here - I would rather say that all individuals who get on the mound and throw a ball 60 ft are pitchers.

Starters, middle relievers, set-up men and closers. Call them whatever you'ld like.

If a pitcher contributed way beyond the normal hurlers - accomplished monumental things to advance their team and baseball - that's what an HOF'er is to me.

So, there are now 4 pitchers in the HOF who possess those attributes - whether it be in wins or saves.

Wilhelm, Fingers, Eckersley and Sutter.

Some also were starters and were converted to relief/savers - whatever - bottom line - they did more as pitchers than most in the history of baseball can ever imagine.

But, if I had to put a number on the saves? 300 to 350.

So, in conclusion - let's just call them pitchers - worthy of enshrinement if they've earned it.
mike

jmbkb4

478+

Lee Smith should be in.