Are these US-Philippine coins overly-priced?

NonCents

I recently went to a website that deals with USPI coins and asked them what their selling prices were for a few of the coins they had listed. This is what I got in response.

1930-M 5 centavo MS-64 PCGS, $595

1919-S 10 centavo MS-66 NGC, $3,000

1921 50 centavo MS-64 PCGS, $1,130

I've been collecting these coins for about two years now and I haven't seen anything out there that would suggest such high prices for these coins. For example I wouldn't pay $3000 for the 1919-S 10 Centavos with a pop report of 2/0 when a 1903 10 Centavos graded MS-66 with a pop report of 1/0 by NGC just recently sold for a little over $500 on ebay. The one price i'm going to really point out is the 1921 50 centavos graded MS-64 by PCGS. Wow, I think I'll stick with my 1921 50 Centavos graded MS-64 by NGC that I won for less than 50 bucks. What do you think? Way over priced or reasonable? Your feedback is greatly appreciated.

sbeverly

My partner in life is Philippino, so we are interested in collecting those coins.

What is is good book (resource) to study this series?

Thanks in advance.

lordmarcovan

Both the Redbook of US coins and the Krause world coin catalogs cover Philippine coinage. (In the case of the Redbook, only the coins struck under US sovereignty or the US Commonwealth are included).

I am sure there are other more specialized references available, and several specialists in the field frequent these boards, so I am sure someone will chime in with more specialized titles and/or websites. But the basics are readily available at any fair-sized bookstore.

As to the question in the title of this thread, I don't know without looking them up, and even then, one would want to see pictures of the coins.

1jester

There are several specialists of these coins on this board, and you can certainly expect a response from at least one of them (JustHavingFun, for example) in short order.

Welcome to the Darkside, by the way!

FilamCoins

Silly prices, especially for the 50c, you are right. I suppose the other two are relatively rare in those grades, but I would guess closer to $300 rare, not $3,000 rare. Be sure to check both NGC and PCGS POP reports (especially the latter) when doing census analysis.

As 1jester mentioned, Mr. JHF will have a lot more price data and can share his extensive experience with the series.

He will also probably admonish me for not understanding the U.S. market for these coins!

Have fun with USPI and keep collecting!!

NonCents

I should just have put the total pop for those two coins from both grading services. Well, here it is. The MS66 1919-S 10 Centavos for $3000 has a pop of 3/0 in both NGC and PCGS. The MS66 1903 10 Centavos that sold for a little over $500 has a pop of 1/0 in both NGC and PCGS.

FilamCoins

The 03 had a mintage of 5,102,658 and was probably widely saved, due to it being the first year of the series. The 19-S had a mintage of 1,630,000 and was probably also saved (although less so), since that was the last year the dime was struck in San Francisco. Both are easy coins, but not in 66. With pops of 1/0 and 3/0, those are some pretty rare coins. Don't think you'll see too many coming up for sale in that grade, although a few more might be made, given the large mintages. Although $3k sounds steep for the 19-S, it may be a good long-term investment. Did you win the 03 in 66? Can you post a pic?

NonCents

Sorry, but I'm not the one who won that coin. I would have bid on it, but I was already satisfied with my 1903 10 Centavos graded MS65 by PCGS with a pop of 6/0. However, that could change if the person who won that coin on ebay tries to cross it over to PCGS. I agree with you filamcoins, they are rare in those grades. I just don't think to many people would buy the 1919-S 10 centavos for that kind of money unless they have crazy money like Mr. Justhavingfun. As far as buying this coin as an investment, LOL, I don't know about you but when I die someday, I plan on being buried with my coins.

coinkat

very nice set...

FilamCoins

<< <i>I would have bid on it, but I was already satisfied with my 1903 10 Centavos graded MS65 by PCGS with a pop of 6/0. >>



You mean POP 6/1

trozau

<< <i>My partner in life is Philippino, so we are interested in collecting those coins.

What is is good book (resource) to study this series?

Thanks in advance. >>


Not trying to be overly picky but being a Filipino expat, here's the proper terminology:

Country: Filipinas - Spanish era
Philippines - American era
Pilipinas - Current

People: Filipinos

Justhavingfun

Hello NonCents:

FIRST, congratulations on building a great type set in the US Philippine coins, and doing it the right way -- nailing down the harder coins first, so your holes are all easy shots. By the time you finish, you should have one of the best type sets in town.


SECOND, you did exactly the right thing when you turned down the coin. That's what I do when I'm faced with a price I think of as unreasonable, and that's the best and only recourse collectors like you and I have.


THIRD, that said, I'm person responsible for your hardship with that website. The person running that site consulted with me on those prices and when we hit a consensus price that was it.

My point to him was simple: The 1919-S in MS66, is impossible to replace: when he sells it, he's never going to get another. They're just not making 'em any more.

Indeed, we compared the July 2001 PCGS pop report for the 1919-S with the April 2006 pop report -- the last that either he or I had in Manila (I'm visiting, he lives here). The 2001 pop report showed one 1919-S 10 centavo in MS 66; the 2006 pop report still showed only one in that grade. So in 5 long years, not a single new 1919-S 10 centavo MS66 was made in MS 66.

So when you kissed this incredibly rare, beaut goodbye, you kissed it goodbye for ever.


FOURTH, the 1903 10 centavo in MS 66 that sold for $511, must have slipped through my net when I was traveling. Because I'll automatically, without even thinking, bid to $3,000 on an upgrade. And for a 1/0 pop top, I'll bid up a least few grand higher, depending on how I'm fixed for the undergrade. I only have that coin in MS65, and I really, really regret not getting a chance to bid the h_ll out of it.

I'm paying absurd prices you say? Yeah.

But when I was building my collection, which today is the #1 in the world for US Philippines, I kept on making "stupid" purchases like that. Waaay above market.

You know what? The market has long since caught up to my stupid purchases. I've been giving my middle-of-the-road "mistakes" away to friends like Bright Young Filipina and others because I have no possible need for them any more. And you know what? All my "mistakes" -- with a few exceptions -- are now selling for far more than the so-called absurd prices I once paid for them.

I'm delighted that you didn't make a "stupid" purchase of that 1919-S 10 centavo for $3,000, because right now it's comfortably nestled inside my hotel room safe. Where you ain't ever going to see it (for sale).


And that brings me to my FIFTH and final point. I'm your collector from hell. I love collectors like you -- because until you learn to step up to the plate and swing for the fences, you'll never have a chance to outbid me.

The collector whom I do fear is the collector who knows that. The one who saw a 1912-S peso in MS 65, cataloged at $2,500, who looked my agent in the face when my agent bid $57,500 for the coin. And then bid $63,250 for the coin.

Now that stupid SOB -- he's someone I respect. And you know what -- he's going to make to make a lot of money on that coin -- just like my children will make a lot of money on that 1919-S in MS 66.

Enjoy yourself. You're doing a great job building a great collection on the cheap. I really, really mean that and admire the job you're doing. I've chosen a different road but I wish you well.

Warm regards,



Just Having Fun -- and lots of it in Manila.

SYRACUSIAN

This is an incredible post by Mr JHF. I loved it even if I do not agree on every single point he made. I'm glad that he doesn't collect Greek coins.

trozau

<< <i>I'm glad that he doesn't collect Greek coins. >>


It's tough when your competition doesn't blink!

satootoko

I'm nowhere near wealthy enough to follow the path JHF has set out on, but I can't help respecting his as a true collector, obviously far more interested in the coin than its value!

Carry on pal - unfortunately I'll never win the lottery and join you on your path, as I don't play it.

1jester

Sometimes I simply LOVE these educational threads.

coinkat

Interesting thread...

As I wrote earlier, NoCents has put together a terrific set...

This is not measured by Registry points or the grade assigned by a TPG, but by the satisfaction of making smart purchases and owning quality coins. As we all know, there are limitations that are associated with a hobby or for that matter, other challenges that are undertaken for various reasons. The challenge for some, myself included, is to enjoy the process of assemblying a collection that represents quality, but has financial limitations that restrains purchases which adds to the decision making process, which includes considering issues such as... when will I see a better example? How rare is this coin in a state of preservation that I find acceptable? I consider these issues constantly.

The other component that is worth mentioning is... collecting does not always have to be competitive. The intensity for all series that one collects does not have to exist at the same level. We really have to prioritize to a degree. I do and let me share an example... I can live with nice original Victorian and Edwardian coinage from Canada that grades in the VF to AU range. I am not willing to pay $1000 for an MS63 1872-H quarter when I can buy a nice original high end VF example for around $50. The difference can be used for something that we know is going to be $$$.

If nothing else... (besides the learning alittle about the rarity factor of US-Philippines coinage) this thread has given us something to think about and it hopefully is positive and even helpful in terms of our approach to collecting.

Justhavingfun

Hello SBeverly: The best book for learning about the US Philippine coins is a book by Aldo P. Basso called "Coins, Medals and Tokens of the Philppines 1728-1974. It's an old book but it's the great classic that all the dealers out here in Manila rely upon.

About 10 years ago, when one dealer, Abe Luspo, saw I was interested in the the coins, he gave me a copy. I took it with me as my airplane reading on the flight back to America. That was a mistake. Instead of sleeping as I usually do on the flight, I read the book from cover to cover -- and then went back and read it again! Great book, unfortuntely out of print, but fortunately easily accessible through a used book dealer.

Good reading and enjoy yourself!


Just Having Fun

Justhavingfun

"I just don't think to many people would buy the 1919-S 10 centavos for that kind of money unless they have crazy money like Mr. Justhavingfun."

Hello NonCents: Yes, I have what must seem like "crazy money" to you, but that was not always the case.

When I was a young man starting out in business, I was I'm sure, poorer than you. Especially since my father, of blessed memory, was long gone. All I really had was a childhood coin collection, a few thousand dollars, and a loving and lovable wife.

But I was bright, ferociously determined to make myself rich, and willing to work my butt off.

You're obviously bright, too, and if you want to have "crazy money" yourself, and are willing to work your own butt off for it, I absolutely promise you, it's within your reach.

I won't belabor the hows ... but three short, easy-to-read books in particular will point the way for you.

-- "Think and Grow Rich" by Napoleon Hill

-- "The Greatest Salesman" in the World by Og Mandingo

-- And "Acres of Diamonds" by I forget whom.

Each book has its own brilliant insight, and each played a key role in my success in bookstrapping myself up from poverty, while I was living on half the then minimum wage. Each book was entirely out of date when I read it 40 or 45 years ago, and yet the message came through crystal clear. And I'm sure it will come through crystal clear today, to your own enquiring mind.

"The Greatest Salesman" in the world was a dazzler and I learned much from it. "Think and Grow Rich" had the best A-B-C recipes for achieving my goals, but the fewest breakthrough insights. "Acres of Diamonds" was a brilliant book that hammered home a key point into my mind. It remains one of my favorite books of all time -- one which I've reread at least half a dozen times.

Close your eyes and visualize yourself 5 years from now, able to spend $3,000 for a coin like the 1919-S, without worrying about it. .Stop and think what a pleasure that will be for you, to get yourself into that situation. Set that as a goal -- that you too are going to have "crazy money" to throw at fun and interesting coins. And if you'll read those books and are willing to work 60 to 80 weeks, you'll have it, just like I do.

Best wishes, and if I'm still alive 5 years from now -- drop me a note, and tell me how you did.

Just Having Fun -- and tons of it here in Manila

Justhavingfun

Dear Dimitri:

If I collected Greek coins, I'd bet you'd find me a pussy cat, and enjoy my company as much as I'd enjoy yours.


Hello Trozau:

It may be tough when your competition doesn't even blink, but it's easy when your competition isn't out to cut your throat but rather to help you and share the knowledge and the fun.


Hi there satootoko:

I don't think we've met before in a thread. But I've read many of your posts and know you by them as a thoughtful and interesting person. Thank you for your kind words.

And, may I respectfully disagree that winning the lottery has anything to do with success in life.

Warm regards,



Just Having Fun

NonCents

Hello Mr. Justhavingfun,

The reason I started my U.S.-Philippines set was because my wife happens to be Filipino and because you can buy many of these coins in high grade at a decent price compared to other U.S. coins of similar years, grades, or population. All I was trying to do was point out that I have been tracking a lot of the U.S.-Philippine coins that are being sold out there these days and that I haven't seen anything in the market which would demand those prices. Yes, if that 1903 10 Centavos had sold for a few grand then I would agree on the price of the 1919-S 10 Centavos without question. The one coin I really wanted to point out was the 1921 50 Centavos. I haven't seen any coins of equal grade even come close to the asking price of that coin. As far as "crazy money" goes, I did not mean that as an insult to you or how you buy coins. What I was trying to say was that you and I are from two different worlds when it comes to affording coins.



<< <i> When I was a young man starting out in business, I was I'm sure, poorer than you. >>



LOL! I'll tell you what, 6 years in the military does not equal much pay as an enlisted soldier. Neither does being a college student now.

Best of wishes to you Mr. Fun and no hard feelings.

coinkat,

Thanks for the comment regarding my type set.

satootoko

<< <i>may I respectfully disagree that winning the lottery has anything to do with success in life. >>

No disagreement - that's why I don't play.

One of the world's largest insurance brokerages (actually the largest by some measures, second by others) is the outgrowth of a company started by W. Clement Stone (in his later years a friend and heavy financial supporter of the President between LBJ and Ford ).

Quite a few decades ago he and his wife Jessee used to send self-help books to shareholders of his company, along with their dividend checks. That's how I first ran across Napoleon Hill's masterpiece "Think and Grow Rich". I got my copy of "The Greatest Salesman" the same way.

Both helped inspire my progress from one share of Stone's company received as a gift, to my present substantial investment in the successor's stock; along with the other investments that allowed me to retire 11-1/2 years ago and lose all interest in 60-80 hour weeks, after working my share for many years!

To me comfortable retirement is being able to say "OK" when the Beautiful Bride suggests dinner out, or a dealer quotes an acceptable price on a coin I want, without having to check whether I can afford it in either case.

On that basis, I'm doing OK, in no small measure resulting from the reading and re-reading of "Think and Go Rich". Thanks for reminding me of something I haven't consciously considered for years.

FilamCoins

This thread in itself is an education in coins and life from two "old" masters. Thanks, Gentlemen! You inspire those of us from a slightly younger generation!

Hussulo

"work 60 to 80 weeks" thats crazy talk. just kidding great thread though, and I respect your passion for high end coins Justhavingfun.

Justhavingfun

Hello satootok: Your follow-up thread was electrifying to me. Made my day! Thank you so much for confirming the power and glory of those books.

Just Having Fun -- and lots of it in Manila

Justhavingfun

" you can buy many of these coins in high grade at a decent price compared to other U.S. coins of similar years, grades, or population"

Dear NonCents: That's exactly right. And I certainly don't have hard feelings. I have the coin ... I told the website owner to give you first whack at the coin and if you didn't want it, I'd scarf it.

And so far as having crazy money goes, to me, that's a compliment, because I know I earned every penny of it. I think one of the authors of one of books I recommended said something like: You can get anything you want if you help enough other people get what they want.

Best wishes with your collection and family,


Just Having Fun

Justhavingfun

Ooops -- the 1921 50 centavo. I don't remember my thinking on that coin and it hardly seems worth while to try to recreate it. You're quite likely to be right about that one and I'm Happy to leave it that way, i.e., that you are right and I am wrong, and my suggested price -- and the consensus that the web-site owner and I reached -- was entirely unreasonable.

Warm regards,



Just Having Fun

IloiloKano

And here is a link (sorted by lowest price first) to several copies of the Basso book on Philippines coins referenced by Justhavingfun (wish I had the means to follow suit)
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?tn=Coins&sortby=2&sts=t&an=Basso&bi=0&bx=off&y=12&ds=30&x=40

trozau

IloiloKano

IloiloKano

I just found these message boards a few weeks back, when I was googling for US-PI information. I've been browsing since then, trying to figure out the icon biz (15thof each month?), and generally trying to discern if the message boards could be useful. Useful turns out to be an understatement, and since decent information can be had about a somewhat obscure category of US minted coins denominated in pesos and centavos, plus the added bonus of occassional posts from the holder of the top registered collection of the same, I think I'll be checking back quite often. Glad to see a lot of Filipino ex-pats and American ex-pats living in the Philippines. But Justhavingfun has apparantly not discovered Iloilo City; otherwise, he'd be referencing that city instead of Manila. That is my eventual ex-pat home in 10 to 15 years.

Just one question... what time on the 15th is icon upload available? Wouldn't want to miss a window and have to wait another month.

1jester

Welcome to the Darkside, IloiloKano! Glad to have you here.

The icon upload function is usually turned on around 10am and shut off around 4-5pm, Pacific time (California time).

USAROK

Welcome IloiloKano! Always nice to have another USPI collector join us.