Is it illegal to own a counterfiet coin?
JoeLewis
Posts: 1,907 ✭✭✭✭
I was just wondering why a grading company, upon determining that a coin is counterfiet, would send it right back out into the the marketplace. Maybe it's not illegal to own a counterfeit...I don't know.
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
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Comments
Ray
<< <i>It isn't illegal to own them. It is illegal to spend them. It is not illegal to sell them as counterfeits. It is illegal to sell them as genuine mint products. >>
From Keith Davignon's CONTEMPORARY COUNTERFEIT CAPPED BUST HALF DOLLARS,
"But the bottom line remains that all coins ever minted by the United States Mint are still regarded as having legal tender status. Counterfeits of such coins remain illegal to own or trade, regardless of whether they were made 150 years ago or yesterday.
Collectors who pursue and acquire these old coins for scholarly, historical, or just plain curiosity's sake, run the risk, however small, of having their collections confiscated by the United States Government."
<< <i>I was just wondering why a grading company, upon determining that a coin is counterfiet, would send it right back out into the the marketplace. Maybe it's not illegal to own a counterfeit...I don't know. >>
The grading company does not own the coins submitted to them and I imagine there'd be lots of complaints if they were to decide to keep coins because they determined them to be counterfeit. What if they kept a suspected counterfeit and it turned out they were wrong about it? What if it was your coin- you'd already had it authenticated by another expert and you were only submitting it because you wanted it graded?
<< <i>I'm like totally surprised that the Govt hasn't seized the 1913 V- Nickels. >>
They only seize coins that they admit are real and consider stolen, like some 1933 coins.
<< <i>It isn't illegal to own them. It is illegal to spend them. It is not illegal to sell them as counterfeits. It is illegal to sell them as genuine mint products. >>
What he said.
- Jim
K S
<< <i>I can find official and otherwise several links that state that owning counterfeit coins is illegal...but I can find ZERO that say it is ok....I see where owning them is illegal but the govt doesn't really go after the owners most of the time....Just because a lot of collectors OWN the counterfeit coins, does not make it legal.... >>
Goes to show you, don't believe everything you read on the web.
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<< <i>
<< <i>I'm like totally surprised that the Govt hasn't seized the 1913 V- Nickels. >>
They only seize coins that they admit are real and consider stolen, like some 1933 coins. >>
The 1913 nickels were produced and sold in an entirely different legal environment. Same thing goes for some of the rare special proofs of the 19th century. High profile collectors wih connections inside the Mint got special favors without a legal hassle, right or wrong, ethical or unethical. Some top provenance coins illustrate a club of special privileges.
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<< <i>According to a book titled "Coin Clinic" which I have in front of me, there was a bunch of 1944 counterfeit nickels made without the mintmark on the back. These still turn up in change and are ILLEGAL to own. >>
your book is wrong
K S
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Why are we guessing? We have enough lawyers on the board. Can one of them check their references to see what the law actually says? >>
I'm no lawyer, but here's the relevant (IMHO) information from the SS's website:
Possession of counterfeit United States obligations with fraudulent intent is a violation of Title 18, Section 472 of the United States Code and is punishable by a fine or imprisonment for up to 15 years, or both.
The "with fraudulent intent" bit is the important part. If you have a counterfeit coin as part of your collection, and you acknowledge it as counterfeit, you're fine. But if you try to sell it as genuine (or spend it), you're breaking the law.
I guess you guys are right, the TPG company does not own the coin. It just seems weird that they have the coin in their possession, it is proven to be counterfiet, and they have to send it right back out into the marketplace.
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
<< <i>
<< <i>Why are we guessing? We have enough lawyers on the board. Can one of them check their references to see what the law actually says? >>
I'm no lawyer, but here's the relevant (IMHO) information from the SS's website:
Possession of counterfeit United States obligations with fraudulent intent is a violation of Title 18, Section 472 of the United States Code and is punishable by a fine or imprisonment for up to 15 years, or both.
The "with fraudulent intent" bit is the important part. If you have a counterfeit coin as part of your collection, and you acknowledge it as counterfeit, you're fine. But if you try to sell it as genuine (or spend it), you're breaking the law. >>
Thanks Bob. You have pointed out that a new law was passed 1/19/04 which now adds "with fraudulent intent", so collecting counterfeit coins is no longer illegal. I read sections 471-473 pertaining to this issue. They all include is is a crime to deal with counterfeits "with fraudulent intent".
Sure glad JoeLewis started this thread.
Now we could use someone to start a counterfeit Capped Bust Half Dollar thread in our CU series.
<< <i>The reason I asked this question is because of the thread about the counterfiet 1916-D dime. Someone mentioned the idea that the dealer might take the coin back, but that he also might try to sell it again. That is just unfortunate that he has the option of doing that.
I guess you guys are right, the TPG company does not own the coin. It just seems weird that they have the coin in their possession, it is proven to be counterfiet, and they have to send it right back out into the marketplace. >>
The TPG is not the police/FBI so they may not have the authority to confiscate someone else's property. Maybe they can make a citizen's arrest?
<< <i>
<< <i>The reason I asked this question is because of the thread about the counterfiet 1916-D dime. Someone mentioned the idea that the dealer might take the coin back, but that he also might try to sell it again. That is just unfortunate that he has the option of doing that.
I guess you guys are right, the TPG company does not own the coin. It just seems weird that they have the coin in their possession, it is proven to be counterfiet, and they have to send it right back out into the marketplace. >>
The TPG is not the police/FBI so they may not have the authority to confiscate someone else's property. Maybe they can make a citizen's arrest? >>
I understand, but if it seems like people should have an ethical responsibility to help clear the marketplace of counterfeits. Now that I understand that owning a counterfeit is legal the TPG company has no choice but to return the counterfeit coin to its owner.
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm like totally surprised that the Govt hasn't seized the 1913 V- Nickels. >>
They only seize coins that they admit are real and consider stolen, like some 1933 coins. >>
The way the govt thinks, ALL 1913 nickels are legal, but NO 1933 double eagles are...
<< <i>
<< <i>According to a book titled "Coin Clinic" which I have in front of me, there was a bunch of 1944 counterfeit nickels made without the mintmark on the back. These still turn up in change and are ILLEGAL to own. >>
your book is wrong
K S >>
That book is going straight into the garbage can!
<< <i>The reason I asked this question is because of the thread about the counterfiet 1916-D dime. Someone mentioned the idea that the dealer might take the coin back, but that he also might try to sell it again. That is just unfortunate that he has the option of doing that.
I guess you guys are right, the TPG company does not own the coin. It just seems weird that they have the coin in their possession, it is proven to be counterfiet, and they have to send it right back out into the marketplace. >>
Incidentally, just to voice a pet peeve...just because this coin came back as "not genuine" does not mean that it is a counterfeit. In fact, the odds are extremely high that it isn't. It is much more likely to be a real coin with an added mintmark. There is a distinct difference and even if it were illegal to own counterfeits it would not be illegal to own this item. It would not even be illegal to SPEND this item.
<< <i>The way the govt thinks, ALL 1913 nickels are legal, but NO 1933 double eagles are... >>
Well, one '33 $20 is legal...
<< <i>I read sections 471-473 pertaining to this issue. They all include is is a crime to deal with counterfeits "with fraudulent intent". >>
Very good, but your reading the wrong sections. Sections 471-473 deal with Government securities and obligations. (government bonds, paper money etc) The sections dealing with counterfeit coins are sections 485-490.
Sec 485 covers possession of counterfeit coins and it includes the key phrase "with intent to defraud". This would seem to make them legal to possess.
Sec 486 makes it illegal to use anything made of metal that isn't a US coin as a coin. (This is where the Liberty dollars get in trouble.)
Sec 487 covers counterfeit dies for US coins
Sec 488 covers counterfeit dies for non-US coins
Sec 489 makes it illegal to make, bring in, or possess with the intent to sell, or give away counterfeit US or foreign coins. (but it doesn't say you can't keep them for yourself.)
Sec 490 is the same as 485 but is specificly for minor coinage. Once again the "with intent to defraud" phrase is there.
Sec 492 is also important It states that all counterfeits (coins, obligations and securities) found in the possession of any person without authority from the Sec Tres shall be forfeited to the United States. But the penalty is a fine of $100 IF you fail to turn them over "upon request by any authorized agent of the Treasury Dept, or other proper officer." This would seem to imply that as long as no Treasury agent finds them in your possession and asks for them, you are OK.
I know that this is an old thread, but I was wondering if anyone had any new thoughts on the subject.
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.
While I could have missed it, I’m not aware of anything that would meaningfully contradict the post above yours.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@JoeLewis said: Is it illegal to own a counterfiet coin?
Yes. 🤣
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Thanks, I was wondering that if I found a C/F coin they would confiscate it.
I wonder why they let it slide so often.
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.
18 U.S. Code § 489 - Making or possessing likeness of coins
Whoever, within the United States, makes or brings therein from any foreign country, or possesses with intent to sell, give away, or in any other manner uses the same, except under authority of the Secretary of the Treasury or other proper officer of the United States, any token, disk, or device in the likeness or similitude as to design, color, or the inscription thereon of any of the coins of the United States or of any foreign country issued as money, either under the authority of the United States or under the authority of any foreign government shall be fined under this title.
as mentioned in the post above yours, counterfeits have to be surrendered upon request.
if you can't sell them (people do)
if you can't give them away (one less option)
or in any other manner (ppl holding them are screwed)
can't bequeath
wouldn't there be loopholes made in changes to make contemporary counterfeits legal to trade?
In Canada, not only is it illegal to buy or sell a counterfeit, it is also
illegal to own one without special permission from the RCMP.
I don't believe Congress has passed any new laws or amendments regarding counterfeit coins in the last 17 years. So all the regulations cited by Writersblock are still accurate and in effect, so all the above arguments about legality would also still be in effect.
With regard to Section 492, I believe the intent of this law is to prevent counterfeiters from reclaiming "their property" - i.e. the fake coins they'd made - once they had been found guilty, done their jail time or paid the penalty. Letting convicted counterfeiters back out onto the streets with access to their stash of counterfeit coins, with nothing but a pinky-promise that the counterfeiters were now really sorry and wouldn't try to spend their stash of counterfeit coins any more, is obviously not good law-writing. 492 gives the government the legal right to permanently confiscate the counterfeits, and the equipment the counterfeiters used to make them, as well as specifically making it illegal for the counterfeiters to hide secret stockpiles of coins for them to find once they got out of prison.
This is the intent of the law, by my layman's understanding. What law enforcement officers and the lawyers and judges in court would actually use Section 492 for is anyone's guess. The way it is worded, it could in theory be used to persecute a widely-publicized collection of counterfeits. But Section 492 also contains grounds for appealing against forfeiture, and "I'm a coin collector" would probably carry some weight as "mitigating circumstances". But it would be up to the Secretary of the Treasury, not the courts, to make that decision.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD.
It must be illegal. Everyone who owned one got banned.
But is it illegal to sell a genuine coin to a counterfeit collector and claim it is a counterfeit? 🤔.
😉
Mr_Spud
you don't have to be a counterfeit or an associate to have the government want to confiscate your counterfeit money
for example, the little old lady had a counterfeit 100 and the bank kept it
The bank isn't the government. The bank is just exercising its counterfeit banknote policy, which is presumably posted somewhere publicly accessible and to which you nominally agreed to abide by before using the bank's services.
A bank removing a counterfeit note from circulation and returning it to the relevant authorities is simply complying with Section 472. Rather, if the bank did anything else with it other than withdraw and report it, they would likely find themselves in violation of Section 472. Exchanging a counterfeit $100 bill for a genuine $100 bill would fall under the definition of "uttering" and therefore be illegal, whether done by a bank or a gangster.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD.
and the feds have a looser policy?
Not only is it legal to own them as long as they're not used for fraudulent purposes, it's also legal to sell and produce them. I'm sure @dcarr has plenty of info on this topic.
Carr is not selling counterfeits. He is selling fantasy coins. There is not one coin he sells that is trying to reproduce an original US coin. They are all slightly different. A 1964 Franklin, A 1964 Peace Dollar etc. It is NOT legal to produce any US coin that is the same as a legitimately issued US coin. You can't make 1921 Peace Dollars, or 1794 Dollars
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Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
Interesting thread. I think we should call the coin cops for a definitive answer.
they don't return our calls