Options
A public applause and thanks to David Hall and PCGS...
VamGuy
Posts: 1,624 ✭
I would like to publicly applaud David Hall and PCGS for their outstanding business ethics... 
About 2 months ago I purchased a $20 gold coin from one of the larger internet auction companies specifically because I believed the coin was overgraded. Mind you, this was the single most expensive coin that I had ever purchased with an out of pocket cost in excess of $3,900.
Yes, big b*lls indeed.
Upon receipt of the coin, my beliefs were confirmed without doubt. Shortly thereafter, I submitted the coin to PCGS under their grade guarantee program. About a month later I received a telephone call and I was advised that PCGS agreed that the coin was indeed overgraded, and PCGS offered to purchase the coin. I received the settlement check today.
For those who may be skeptical about the PCGS grade guarantee, as I most certainly had been, you can rest assured that PCGS really does stand behind their service, and their grade guarantee really does exist.
As I prepare for my trip to St. Louis for the Central States Coin Show next month, I look forward to purchasing a fresh inventory of primarily PCGS graded coins. And I look forward to crossing those that aren't.
Now if we can only get them to recognize more VAM varieties... please.
Peace,
Larry
About 2 months ago I purchased a $20 gold coin from one of the larger internet auction companies specifically because I believed the coin was overgraded. Mind you, this was the single most expensive coin that I had ever purchased with an out of pocket cost in excess of $3,900.
Yes, big b*lls indeed.
Upon receipt of the coin, my beliefs were confirmed without doubt. Shortly thereafter, I submitted the coin to PCGS under their grade guarantee program. About a month later I received a telephone call and I was advised that PCGS agreed that the coin was indeed overgraded, and PCGS offered to purchase the coin. I received the settlement check today.
For those who may be skeptical about the PCGS grade guarantee, as I most certainly had been, you can rest assured that PCGS really does stand behind their service, and their grade guarantee really does exist.
As I prepare for my trip to St. Louis for the Central States Coin Show next month, I look forward to purchasing a fresh inventory of primarily PCGS graded coins. And I look forward to crossing those that aren't.
Now if we can only get them to recognize more VAM varieties... please.
Peace,
Larry
0
Comments
"About 2 months ago I purchased a $20 gold coin from one of the larger internet auction companies specifically because I believed the coin was overgraded. Mind you, this was the single most expensive coin that I had ever purchased with an out of pocket cost in excess of $3,900...."
Please explain this to us, if I am reading this correctly, why in the world would you buy a coin specifically because it was overgraded? What was your motivation in doing this?
John D'.
I've also used the PCGS Grade Guarantee a couple of times. PCGS was absolutely classy and professional both times.
It's a way of getting such coins off the market.
<< <i>About 2 months ago I purchased a $20 gold coin from one of the larger internet auction companies specifically because I believed the coin was overgraded. Mind you, this was the single most expensive coin that I had ever purchased with an out of pocket cost in excess of $3,900...
Upon receipt of the coin, my beliefs were confirmed without doubt. Shortly thereafter, I submitted the coin to PCGS under their grade guarantee program. About a month later I received a telephone call and I was advised that PCGS agreed that the coin was indeed overgraded, and PCGS offered to purchase the coin. I received the settlement check today. >>
Why would you purchase a coin that you thought was overgraded?
You seem happy PCGS bought back your coin. How much did PCGS pay you over what you had into the coin?
What did PCGS use for determining the amount paid to you?
<< <i>PCGS really does stand behind their service, and their grade guarantee really does exist. >>
Yes, they do. I've used it a few times myself. And, I'll tell you what: They are a hell of a lot quicker than NGC. I've had one in there for over four months and still no resolution.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Why would you purchase a coin that you thought was overgraded?
You seem happy PCGS bought back your coin. How much did PCGS pay you over what you had into the coin?
What did PCGS use for determining the amount paid to you?
I purchased the coin for one reason. To turn a profit. I was 99% confident that the coin was overgraded. On the day I purchased the coin, the greysheet priced it at $4,900 in MS64. I paid just over $3,900.
My intention was to have the coin downgraded to a 63 ($1,800 greysheet), accept a check for the difference ($3,100), and then flip the newly slabbed 63 for the profit. Unfortunately, the greysheet price of an MS64 dropped by $1,000 in the interim. So my $4,900 greysheet bid in MS64 became $3,900 while I owned the coin. A stroke of bad luck.
Compare Dec 2006 CDN Quarterly III for 1895-S $20 Lib, to the March 2007 CDN Quarterly III .
Three things happened as a result...
1.) I turned a profit, $200 after all expenses. Not the score I hoped for, but it sure beats a sharp stick in the eye.
2.) I confirmed my ability to grade $20 Libs... or at least this one.
3.) I verified that the PCGS grade guarantee does indeed exist.
PCGS, ANACS, & NGC Certified Coins on My Website.
roadrunner
At the very least, I would expect the buy back to be equal to what the submitter had into the coin, assuming the coin was purchased shortly before submitting for grade guarantee. PCGS should better explain how they will determine buy back values. Leaving it wide open for PCGS to do as they like in every buy back simply does not cut it.
Perhaps PCGS should keep their retail price guide current, and use it for ALL buybacks.
I purchased the coin for one reason. To turn a profit. I was 99% confident that the coin was overgraded. On the day I purchased the coin, the greysheet priced it at $4,900 in MS64. I paid just over $3,900.
My intention was to have the coin downgraded to a 63 ($1,800 greysheet), accept a check for the difference ($3,100), and then flip the newly slabbed 63 for the profit. Unfortunately, the greysheet price of an MS64 dropped by $1,000 in the interim. So my $4,900 greysheet bid in MS64 became $3,900 while I owned the coin. A stroke of bad luck.
Compare Dec 2006 CDN Quarterly III for 1895-S $20 Lib, to the March 2007 CDN Quarterly III .
Three things happened as a result...
1.) I turned a profit, $200 after all expenses. Not the score I hoped for, but it sure beats a sharp stick in the eye.
2.) I confirmed my ability to grade $20 Libs... or at least this one.
3.) I verified that the PCGS grade guarantee does indeed exist. >>
I'm glad you came out ahead, but just seems to me too risky a venture should it not have turned out in your favor.
<< <i>It sounds like PCGS used greysheet ask to determine what to pay out on this coin. That would not be sufficient compensation for someone who won an overgraded PCGS coin at auction.
At the very least, I would expect the buy back to be equal to what the submitter had into the coin, assuming the coin was purchased shortly before submitting for grade guarantee. PCGS should better explain how they will determine buy back values. Leaving it wide open for PCGS to do as they like in every buy back simply does not cut it.
Perhaps PCGS should keep their retail price guide current, and use it for ALL buybacks.
When they bought back my (spotted after holdering I believe) 1968-S PR69DCAM Kennedy, they paid $300. I think that was closer to their price guide than anything else (I won it for ~$200 on ebay a few months prior and the minor spot grew and invited a few friends so I used grade guarantee)
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>At the very least, I would expect the buy back to be equal to what the submitter had into the coin >>
That would be incredibly bad business practice. There are plenty of cases in auctions where coins get bid to well beyond any realistic market value. PCGS is not responsible for the stupidity of others.
Russ, NCNE
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
<< <i>At the very least, I would expect the buy back to be equal to what the submitter had into the coin, assuming the coin was purchased shortly before submitting for grade guarantee. >>
I totally, but respectfully, disagree.
A measure of fair market value is the only guide that makes sense in these cases -
<< <i>
<< <i>At the very least, I would expect the buy back to be equal to what the submitter had into the coin >>
That would be incredibly bad business practice. There are plenty of cases in auctions where coins get bid to well beyond any realistic market value. PCGS is not responsible for the stupidity of others.
Russ, NCNE >>
Russ is absolutely correct. Remember a certain dayglow toned SAE that was recently offered on eBay at $25,000? Had some idiot purchased it at that price, and then submitted it under the guarantee, it would be unrealistic to expect PCGS to make him whole.
PCGS, ANACS, & NGC Certified Coins on My Website.
"About 2 months ago I purchased a $20 gold coin from one of the larger internet auction companies specifically because I believed the coin was overgraded. Mind you, this was the single most expensive coin that I had ever purchased with an out of pocket cost in excess of $3,900...."
Please explain this to us, if I am reading this correctly, why in the world would you buy a coin specifically because it was overgraded? What was your motivation in doing this?
.............
Well smoe people buy undergraded [or so they think] coins to crackout and try for a bump. whats wrong with playin the game the other way if you know that a coin is overgraded?
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
<< <i>It sounds like PCGS used greysheet ask to determine what to pay out on this coin. That would not be sufficient compensation for someone who won an overgraded PCGS coin at auction.
At the very least, I would expect the buy back to be equal to what the submitter had into the coin, assuming the coin was purchased shortly before submitting for grade guarantee. PCGS should better explain how they will determine buy back values. Leaving it wide open for PCGS to do as they like in every buy back simply does not cut it.
Perhaps PCGS should keep their retail price guide current, and use it for ALL buybacks.
Wow! All kinds of posts since I took my afternoon nap.
It appears my earlier comment about PCGS buying back for at least what the submitter recently paid for the coin needs a qualifier. I was thinking major auction house prices realized. I thought my sentence just prior to this statement would be interpreted as a continuation of the auction house price realized thinking. I do not believe PCGS should pay out for overpaying retail customers, but I do believe recent auction prices realized SHOULD be used to determine buyback amounts. I was under the impression that the PCGS retail price guide was based on current pricing, which certainly should use auction prices realized as its basis.
Sorry if I stirred the pot. At least it got lots of people to comment.
<< <i>My earlier post:
<< <i>It sounds like PCGS used greysheet ask to determine what to pay out on this coin. That would not be sufficient compensation for someone who won an overgraded PCGS coin at auction.
At the very least, I would expect the buy back to be equal to what the submitter had into the coin, assuming the coin was purchased shortly before submitting for grade guarantee. PCGS should better explain how they will determine buy back values. Leaving it wide open for PCGS to do as they like in every buy back simply does not cut it.
Perhaps PCGS should keep their retail price guide current, and use it for ALL buybacks.
Wow! All kinds of posts since I took my afternoon nap.
It appears my earlier comment about PCGS buying back for at least what the submitter recently paid for the coin needs a qualifier. I was thinking major auction house prices realized. I thought my sentence just prior to this statement would be interpreted as a continuation of the auction house price realized thinking. I do not believe PCGS should pay out for overpaying retail customers, but I do believe recent auction prices realized SHOULD be used to determine buyback amounts. I was under the impression that the PCGS retail price guide was based on current pricing, which certainly should use auction prices realized as its basis.
Sorry if I stirred the pot. At least it got lots of people to comment.
The final settlement exceeded recently realized auction prices for comparably graded coins. PCGS was more than generous in the settlement amount.
PCGS, ANACS, & NGC Certified Coins on My Website.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
The Greysheet might have based their price change on what you paid for your coin at auction.
<< <i> The Greysheet might have based their price change on what you paid for your coin at auction. >>
I actually thought of that as well. But all of the recent sales at Heritage archives for the same plastic/grade/mm were already averaged closer to the $3,900. It's more likely that the previous $4,900 was an error/typo.
The bottom line is that I became more secure in my grading ability, and PCGS stood up and did the right thing. They're a class act. That's more than I can say for NGC, a company who won't even guarantee their VAM attributions. LINK
PCGS, ANACS, & NGC Certified Coins on My Website.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>When PCGS buys back a coin why do they not use the values in their price guide? >>
Greatest single question in the history of mankind
<< <i>For those who may be skeptical about the PCGS grade guarantee, as I most certainly had been, you can rest assured that PCGS really does stand behind their service, and their grade guarantee really does exist.
>>
That's probably the single reason PCGS is #1. I really don't think they grade any better than, say, ANACS or ICG even, but when they screw up they rectify the problem. Everyone else tries to give you the run-around first. It's almost like their reputation matters more to them than the money.
<< <i>When PCGS buys back a coin why do they not use the values in their price guide? >>
Because many of the prices in the guide do not correctly reflect market value. There is no such thing as an accurate price guide anywhere, including theirs.
Russ, NCNE
edit to:
Of course one could get around that by claiming the coin was purchased long ago and no receipt is available.
Still we do not hear to many stories about sustained success with this "overgrading arbitrage".
<< <i>not to be a spoilsport, but I don't ever recall anyone applauding me after I built a beautiful ceiling or cabinets. (Ya know, doing what you should do).
edit to:
Well, the wife would like some new cabinets. Come build us some super nice ones and, if the price is low enough, I will applaud you
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>I'm glad PCGS is buying stuff back-I've got several Saints for them to keep the ball rolling.
I think everyone who has messed with stuff should know they can sell the coins back to both PCGS and NGC.
Its time we all send the bad coins back and clean up the market up! >>
I have some NGC AU Busties, that I think over many years, have toned too darkly to be market acceptable. How does NGC determine what they would pay?
<< <i>
<< <i>not to be a spoilsport, but I don't ever recall anyone applauding me after I built a beautiful ceiling or cabinets. (Ya know, doing what you should do).
edit to:
Well, the wife would like some new cabinets. Come build us some super nice ones and, if the price is low enough, I will applaud you
travel pay will kill ya......
<< <i>not to be a spoilsport, but I don't ever recall anyone applauding me after I built a beautiful ceiling or cabinets. (Ya know, doing what you should do).
edit to:
I don't think you are a spoilsport. PCGS did what they do best. They stood behind their work.
Just like us contractors have to do to ensure our future. Treat people the right way and you will succeed. I am sure you offer great craftsmanship from your post.
I applaud you !
<< <i>
<< <i>not to be a spoilsport, but I don't ever recall anyone applauding me after I built a beautiful ceiling or cabinets. (Ya know, doing what you should do).
edit to:
I don't think you are a spoilsport. PCGS did what they do best. They stood behind their work.
Just like us contractors have to do to ensure our future. Treat people the right way and you will succeed. I am sure you offer great craftsmanship from your post.
I applaud you !
as long as the check cashes.
<< <i>
<< <i>When PCGS buys back a coin why do they not use the values in their price guide? >>
Because many of the prices in the guide do not correctly reflect market value. There is no such thing as an accurate price guide anywhere, including theirs.
Russ, NCNE >>
So what exactly is the basis then? I'm only seeing rumored theories in this thread.
"If the grade determined under such "Guarantee Resubmission" procedures is lower than the grade originally assigned to the coin, or if the coin is found to be misattributed, non-authentic, PCGS shall pay the current market value for the coin in question at the originally assigned grade, or at the owner of the coin's option, the difference between the current market value for the coin in question at the newly established grade and the current market value of the coin in question at the grade originally assigned. PCGS will also refund the regrading fee and postage and insurance costs incurred by the coin owner in sending the coin to PCGS. It is understood that PCGS will be the sole determiner of the current market value of the coin and that current market value is defined as dealer replacement value, i.e. the price a dealer would most likely have to pay to replace the coin."
Notice in the last line, PCGS pays "dealer replacement cost", so a collector will not get his replacement cost.
From the NGC web site:
"In the event that any owner or subsequent purchaser of an NGC coin believes that a coin has been over-graded by NGC with respect to such procedures, such person may submit the coin to NGC through its "Appearance Review" service for a review of the assigned grade. If the grade determined under such review in NGC's sole opinion is ultimately lower than that originally assigned NGC COIN GRADINGto the coin, NGC shall, at NGC's option, either exchange the coin in question with an equivalent coin at the earlier higher grade or pay the difference between the current fair market value of the coin at the newly established grade and the current fair market value of the grade originally assigned to such coin. Due to the volatile nature of the coin market and Internet auctions/sales, the selling prices in these auctions/sales do not necessarily represent the current fair market value of any particular coin. NGC will determine the current fair market value of a coin based upon what NGC believes, in its sole opinion, to be reliable current market information. NGC's subjective determination of fair market value shall be binding on all parties."
Notice NGC says they pay "fair market value". NGC has total control on this value, no negotiations.
It appears NGC is willing to pay retail, but PCGS will only pay wholesale.