HD CONFIRMED IT WASN'T TRUE AS EXPECTED!

wondercoin · December 30, 2001 4:46PM

NOTICE: SINCE ENOUGH FOLKS WERE OBVIOUSLY BOTHERED BY THIS "DRAMATIZATION"/POST IN YEAR 2001, I HAVE DECIDED TO DELETE IT TO AVOID SIMILAR FEELINGS IN 2002! FEEL FREE TO PM ME THOUGH FOR A COPY OF THE ORIGINAL POST. HAPPY NEW YEARS! Wondercoin.

ModMan · December 30, 2001 5:25PM

If you don't own it, don't register it. That seems fair, true?

cosmicdebris · December 30, 2001 8:23PM

WHAT????????????????????????????? I can't believe this. Who is the source?

I have more faith in HD than some unnamed source.

gary · December 30, 2001 8:28PM

What's Worse lesseing Or BORROWING COINS FROM ONE SETS TO MAKE OTHER SETS? GARY

kranky · December 30, 2001 10:29PM

You know, that concept was discussed in this thread in the US Coin forum, but it was just joking around.

billywls · December 30, 2001 10:56PM

Only High Desert can speak to accuracy of your source. And only PCGS can determine whether leasing is permitted under its rules.

I have looked at applying almost every type of financing arrangement to my sets because of the large amount of money tied up in an illiquid non-cash flow producing asset. A closed-end lease, particularly if it were a sale and lease back, would be ideal for estate planning for someone with health problems(as in my case). This arrangement would allow the person to enjoy his coins but his family would not have the problem of disposing of them from the estate. This type of arm's length lease would not be cheap if the lessor priced it properly to compensate for price volitility and carrying cost. I don't think I would have a problem with this type of arrangement in the registry. I decided against this approach because it is expensive.

On the other hand finding a buddy who has some great coins in the vault and paying him a nominal fee to register them in my name, might be a lot less acceptable.

Wondercoin, I am surprised that you didn't have a private discussion with HD before going public with a questionable rumor.

Spooly · December 30, 2001 10:57PM

Wondercoin why would you post this? Based on a "(from a somewhat unreliable source)". I think this should have been a PM or e-mail to HD. That is very serious statement about one of the forums best members.

khayse · December 30, 2001 11:03PM

I don't believe it for a second.

However, if anyone wants to lease registering rights
to some of my coins (a fool and his money and all that...),
please PM me.

-Keith H

Spooly · December 30, 2001 11:22PM

Mitch, I hope you know what your doing. This could be Slander is the worst case. It better be true for your sake... if not I see your selling days on this forum as over. You might want to delete this post, and PM or e-mail HD.

Coinmonger · December 31, 2001 12:02AM

I hope he doesn't respond - it doesn't deserve a response.

Wingsrule · December 31, 2001 12:12AM

"If you do not lease, I will reprimand my poor source for starting this thread."

Mitch - your source only made a comment. That's your icon in the corner. You started the thread, not your source.

dbldie55 · December 31, 2001 12:42AM

As I said before, you do not need coins for a registry set. Just the paper inserts with the numbers. If you do not intend to sell, then you will never have to worry. While not the intent of the program, there is no way to police this as no one ever has to see the coins. Same goes for "leasing" the insert number. I am not sure anything is even wrong with this. All you need to do is think of it as a group collection. If a club decided to create a collection, and register it, no one would think anything of this. The coins would be owned by club members, not one member, which is the same as in this "leasing" case.

As to this post, using a source that is self proclaimed to be unreliable, to make claims in a negative nature with no initial verification is in real poor taste.

TomB · December 31, 2001 12:48AM

<< HD: Say it isn't true!! I just heard (from a somewhat unreliable source, so I want to verify it) that it might be possible that you do not actually own many of the coins in your vast Registry collections, but, rather, you lease them!!! Closed end 5 year leases at modest monthly lease payments, so you don't have to actually purchase the coins, but can continue to win each Registry contest you engage in. I understand the benefit of leasing and avoiding the "loss" of driving the coins out of the "showroom", but, I am not sure if PCGS accepts leased coins in their Registry sets?? If they do, perhaps this is the new business of 2002?? >>

<< Question: (1) Do you have any leased coins in your existing Registry sets?; (2) Do you believe it is permissible for Registry participants to use leased coins in their Registry sets?; (3) If the answer to questions 1 and 2 are "yes" and "yes", will you reveal your sources for such leased merchandise? >>

<< If you do not lease, I will reprimand my poor source for starting this thread. But, in that case, I would also be interested if you believe leased coins are proper in a registry set, so long as they are only leased to one person at a time, at any given time. What about "lease to own" deals? Wondercoin. >>

WOW!!!

What the heck is this all about? I agree that working through this via a PM or email is/was the best way to go. It seems fairly irresponsible to write this unless you know it's the truth and have already gone through with contacting HD about it and have hit a brick wall. The entire "somewhat unreliable source" comment is also more than a little disconcerting.

I had to edit this because I formatted it wrong.

MS67PLUS · December 31, 2001 1:28AM

I think Mitch meant this as a joke. I know HD and every coin he has registered in his many sets all belong to him.He does not need to rent lease or borrow any coin for his set why his pockets are so deep if he drops a quarter in it takes a week to fall to the bottom.

Sometimes we all take things a little out of context I am sure Mitch will explain it all later.

pontiacinf · December 31, 2001 1:37AM

lol...i was just pondering a what if someone used numbers seen in ebay auctions to create a wild set as a joke...

but i doubt anyone would create a fake set or rent one...but if renting is ok...I have about 6 statehood proof sets....all 69dcams which can be rented for a fair price

ArtR · December 31, 2001 1:41AM

<< I think Mitch meant this as a joke. >>

Well if that is true he needs to start using Emotion icons in his posts.

ModMan · December 31, 2001 1:45AM

If it ends up being a joke- it's an unexceptable one. Be honest: If I had started this thread I'd be facing a flame war (and, deservingly so).
Wondercoins- Not fun. Not funny.

TomB · December 31, 2001 2:05AM

I don't know how one could assume that this was a joke thread. I think if you truly believe that, MS67PLUS, that you are putting on some serious blinders. Please, explain to me how this could realistically be looked at as a joke thread, I see no evidence as such, only your faith in Mitch.

HighDesert · December 31, 2001 2:13AM

Happy New Year, all.

edited to reflect the original intent of the post

ModMan · December 31, 2001 2:20AM

So now my follow up question isn't so much if there is validity to the Thread's header, but if this is morally alright.

Isn't there a small part of you that wants to scream, "NO"! If you don't own the coin, then the Registry is only reflecting your ability at locating the coin and then buying the 'rights' to the insert.

That taints the Registries IMHO.

keithdagen · December 31, 2001 2:50AM

I can't begin to describe how sick this thread is beginning to make me.

Whether there is any truth to this or not, consider this:

1. High's Complete Type Set is probably worth well over a million dollars, based strictly on the average grade for the coins. What dealer, or group of dealers, is going to be willing to sit on that kind of inventory just so someone can rent a certificate number. There are enough collectors out there looking for these pieces that they would be easy to sell.

2. High is constantly upgrading his sets, which can't be easy to do considering his averages are already near the top on each set he is active in. Since the odds of a single dealer being able to supply him with all of his material is low, that must mean that we have collusion among many dealers to do this.

3. High gave us a peek at the Modern Type, 1900-present Set a long time ago when he hit 100%. The coins were well-matched, and appeared to be put together by a collector who made some serious effort to assemble the set. Secretive doesn't necessarily mean that you are trying to hide something wrong.

4. If High has a great source that can come up with great coins like this on a regular basis, does anyone honestly expect him to share the source?

Keith

Rampage · December 31, 2001 2:52AM

Wondercoin-
You have gone over the limit on this post. It is none of your business if he/she owns or leases the coins/inserts. With tactics like this, I would never buy anything from you, nor would I ever sell to you. Cheers.

HD----I agree with you. It is no ones business. If you have the source, then by all means, use it. Cheers.

Rampage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

billywls · December 31, 2001 3:34AM

First, there seems to be a misconception about leasing in general. Do you think it is cheaper to lease a car than own one? Think again. The lessor has all the same cost as an owner plus he is going to make a profit on the lease after all other expenses including financing and depreciation. It is not cheaper but many people use them to get a more expensive car because it requires no equity(down payment). Does the state refuse to register the car because you lease it. No. While acknowledging the owner they understand that it is under your control and responsibility.

Have you used a credit card to buy a coin? Do you think there should be a rule that you could not register the coin until the card balance was paid off? Does it seem morally wrong?

My point is that the market place is very effecient and it is naive to think that any one can get something for "pennies on the dollar" for any thing in life.

My feeling is that a market rate lease is no different than any other financing method. It's a matter of personal choice.

When putting together a $500,000 to $1 million dollar set, should a collector be restricted on his financing choice? Home equity loans?
Credit cards? Mortgage on the yacht or plane? I don't think so.

Whether the collection is great or small, it is the collector's. How he finances it, like most financial matters in this country, is a personal matter.

I agree with HD. As long as the coins are under his control,it is certainly none my business how he pays for that privilege. And I'm his most dedicated competitor.

(copied from another thread to this one where it's more appropriate)

andy007 · December 31, 2001 3:47AM

I have to say that this and other recent and abrubt changes to the Registry Sets is very disheartening for a true collector. I can tell you firsthand Bill that from your example of leasing a car, I work as a Title Clerk at the DMV for the state of Alabama and here and every other southern state in the U.S. registers leased cars of course, but the main point your missing is, when we do register a leased car, it is registered in that person and the lessee's name and the actual title is in the hands of the actual owner, the lease company. So how can that be fair to register a leased out set without also stating the actual true owner's of the coins? It is unethical IMO to register such a set and is not in the true spirit of competition that is such a positive part of the Registry Sets. If trying to tie up someone else's cert numbers with a lease contract is what coin collecting is all about, I don't want any part of it.

solid · December 31, 2001 4:36AM

I'm going to reserve my comments and speculation for now, but I do have a question.

Mitch, what do you think of the legitimacy of leasing coins for the registry sets?

Since you started the thread, I'd like to know your opinion.

Ken

merz2 · December 31, 2001 4:46AM

I have watched with interest this thread.I believe HD's Set composition is his business.Do I think it would be right to lease or rent a certification #,the answer is No!I believe everyone must follow his or her own concious.I personally hope it isn't true.Since I've withdrawn my set,I probably am not entitled to speak on this matter.As a collector I feel I must.I don't think this was what PCGS had in mind when they came up with the Registry Sets.

Tonelover · December 31, 2001 4:53AM

This is just silly, 'nuff said.

ModMan · December 31, 2001 5:05AM

Wondercoin is logged on. I received a PM from him about 30 minutes ago and another just now.*
Wondercoin, would you please comment?

*I'm still a believer that a PM is exactly that- or I'd share it now.

jmwarren · December 31, 2001 5:36AM

People should get off of Wondercoins a**. If what he says is true, which, I've only read this thread once, and it does appear to be true from High's response, then he did everyone a favor by exposing what type of person this "High" is. "Leasing" a coin is much like a man visiting a prostitute. Can't get a woman on his own, so he has to go out and buy one to prove to himself he is a man. Anyone who would "lease" coins for his registry set is.... #1 A total idiot who likes to gain (try to gain) prestige by having his name in a #1 slot on a computer screen, and #2 A liar and a fraud. Just my opinion though.

jmwarren · December 31, 2001 5:53AM

<< 

HD wrote:

Wondercoin,

My flabber is a little gasted at all this. I guess I feel like my collecting "habits" are my own business and not subject to public debate.

High Desert >>

This seems a TAD BIT HIPOCRITICAL.....YOU are the one trying to make your collection very public by being #1 in set registries, and in my opinion, if what Mitch said is true, by means of a less than..lets say...honorable way, and therefore, YOU open them for debate.

cosmicdebris · December 31, 2001 5:57AM

If HD wanted his name plastered all over the place he would use his real name. Would he not? His true identity is not known and he wants it that way. Again if all he really cared about was the fame he would be using his real name.

jmwarren · December 31, 2001 6:04AM

I wouldn't want my real name known either if I leased coins...or, to use the analogy again.... If I was a coin John using the services of a Coin Pimp.

RegistryCoin · December 31, 2001 6:06AM

.

dbldie55 · December 31, 2001 6:07AM

How unethical if true! You don't see things like this anywhere else. A similar situation to this would be if a baseball team (Let's use the Florida Marlins for this hypothetical situation) were to bring in a bunch of high priced talent, play one year and win the World Series, to be forever known as Champions for that year. Then get rid of all of the players the next year, which is in effect, leasing them for the one year. Now something like this would never happen, would it?

Or how about this well know registry set of Morgan Dollars:

NFL Set

"It was called the "NFL Set" because the owners were former and present stars of the National Football League. The focus of this set was the best condition possible, with superb eye appeal of major importance as well. This set was sold at Auction in 2001."

This set was not owned by one person, but a group of people. "Leasing" would be no different.

kyleknap · December 31, 2001 6:13AM

I was under the impreesion that Greg Bingham was the sole owner of that set. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Kyle

Coinguy · December 31, 2001 6:20AM

While this is my first post I think of myself as a member of this fine group of collectors. I have enjoyed this forum for almost a year now. But what has happen recently I feel compelled to respond.
First- Wondercoin I feel what you did by publicly announcing High Desert of any questionable actions without first getting all the facts was wrong and shows bad judgment on your part. I have come to expect more from you. I do feel however you had the best interest of the group in mind.
Second- High Desert it has been said you do not own some of the coins in your registry set-while it is you business if you do or not. I feel it would be in everyone’s best interest to say once and for all “yes I own these coins or I currently am using someone else’s cert numbers for my set.” So we can just move on. I think this matter needs to be cleared up with the truth, and you are the only one who can do that.
Mike

kyleknap · December 31, 2001 6:26AM

Wondercoin has not accused High Desert of anything-he simply asked three questions. High Desert has not responded with a clear answer, but instead he comes off with all of this " I have such and such right" bullsh!t.

HD, it's not a difficult question, DO YOU LEASE COINS? YES OR NO???

clevegreg · December 31, 2001 6:29AM

WOW, what a bizarre but interesting thread. I must admit I never even considered the concept of "leasing" a coin, let alone leasing it and using it in a registry set.

I have a friend who has been extremely succesful in business. He also collects coins and has a multi-million dollar collection, but could care less about the registry set concept. Is it OK if I get his permission to use the inserts from his collection on an exclusive basis for 10 years and use them to "build" some remarkable registry sets? Certainly legally it would be, but ethically it would be very wrong in my opinion.

Greg

RegistryCoin · December 31, 2001 6:50AM

.

jmwarren · December 31, 2001 6:59AM

Yea, I see now, oh thank you great teachers, us collectors with downs syndrome have to have picture books with big letters for us to comprehend anything. You guys are a bunch of lying pr*cks, instead of bring up an issue and discussing it, you fabricate stories in order to get off. Do you think you are so smart that making up fairy tales is the only way for others to understand some things? No, I wouldn't know if HD would have to lease a coin, I never heard of him before today. I saw a thread in another forum that said he did. I'm not in this forum to play part of your "role-playing" games, this was a high school level prank. Get out of your houses more, get out from infront of the computer, and kiss my a** you freaking jerk offs. I'll never read anything by any of you again, because you are a game playing boys.

HighDesert · December 31, 2001 7:00AM

Hello All !!

Late last night, two guys, who should have been in bed catching some ZZZZs, ended up IMing each other regarding the state of the universe. As one thing lead to another, the subject of leasing coins came up almost out of the blue (black?). We had seen some evidence of collectors keeping coins in their sets they really did not own and the idea of "borrowing" other collectors' coins. Upon discussion, the two sleep deprived "gentlemen" concluded that it might be interesting to see who was watching out there. Thus was hatched The New Year's Eve 2002 Plot !!!

Before good sense had any chance at all to prevail, one of us brazenly accused the other of dastardly deeds. And continuing the deception after actually obtaining the aforementioned ZZZZs, the other one of us coyly justified his "actions".

As suspected, the members of this forum responded in widely varying fashion as befits the widely varying views of each and all. And each response, if we may say, was well considered and focused upon the issues important to each person.

Our intent was to throw out the old and ring in the new with a thought provoking subject. From your responses we have suceeded admirably/disgustingly/shockingly. We might even suggest that this could happen if members keep getting surprised (shocked?) with Registry Set changes.

For the record:
---wondercoin does not blindside forum members without checking sources first (usually!)
---HighDesert does not lease coins (usually!)

Thanks to everyone and let's keep the ideas coming in 2002 !! The goal is to make Registry collecting a rewarding and meaningful experience. Happy New Year to ALL !!!!

Respectfully submitted,
HighDesert

wondercoin · December 31, 2001 7:00AM

HAPPY NEW YEARS!!

edited for clear meaning. Wondercoin.

jmwarren · December 31, 2001 7:05AM

A bunch of lying freaking pr*cks who have too much time on their hands. What a way to bring in the new year, yea, you did great, exposing yourselves for what you are.

wondercoin · December 31, 2001 7:10AM

JWWARREN: 1) THERE ARE COLLECTORS WITH WRONGLY SUBMITTED COINS IN THEIR SETS RIGHT NOW AND/OR BORROWED COINS. THIS IS A WAKEUP CALL.

(2) NO WHERE IN PCGS OR NGC RULES IS THIS PROHIBITED THAT I AM AWARE OF!!! THIS IS A WAKEUP CALL.

Maybe it would have been better to "name names" and accuse those "immoral" (yet, not illegal) collectors of their dirty deeds??? But, this was a wakeup call. Think about it. Will someone hesitate to register that coin improperly, or fail to remove a sold coin now after this? I hope so. That was my main purpose. To raise an issue MOST PEOPLE WERE NOT EVEN AWARE OF!!! Happy New Year. Wondercoin

JJacks · December 31, 2001 7:14AM

That was interesting!

I am glad to hear the HD doesn't lease coins (Usually at least!). I can just see the new dealer's ad:

Lease you coins at our discount lease rates at beat everyone in your registry race!

"Leasing" a coin would certainly be different then buying one on credit. Just like when you buy a house with a 30 year loan, you are considered the owner (because you pay for the house, and just owe on the loan), it is different then when you "rent" or "lease" a house. You have no ownership, and clearly if this is done with coins, they should not be listed by the person leasing the coins.

I thought it was an interesting topic, but I thought we had to watch for tricks on April fools day, not New Years eve!

JJacks

jmwarren · December 31, 2001 7:15AM

All you did was PLAY A GAME. You sat back, got off, and got your jollies while you watched others, WHO TOOK YOU AS A PERSON WOULD TELL THE TRUTH, battled over your FAKE GAME. If there are people who are leasing out coins, then by God lets talk about it, BUT NOT ALL OF US WANT TO SPEND OUR TIME BEING PAWNS IN YOUR GAME. ONCE AGAIN, KISS MY A**.

gary · December 31, 2001 7:19AM

Mitch,was only asking a question,to bring this posibility to the open.Frankly,I would have never belived it,but that is me.I have felt all along that PCGS was leaveing the door open for something like this by allowing one top coin to be used in muliable sets.REQUIRE ALL SETS TO BE PEDIGREEED BEFORE BECOMEING 100% COMPLETE........GARY

RegistryCoin · December 31, 2001 7:21AM

.

khayse · December 31, 2001 7:24AM

I know you guys are reading a lot into this but all HD has
said is that it's none of your business.

So I would say, "It's none of your business."

-Keith H
ps On a semi-unrelated topic, if you disagree with the idea of
leasing, let your voice be heard. Email PCGS.

wondercoin · December 31, 2001 7:24AM

"All you did was PLAY A GAME"

Not exactly. A controversial subject was raised, MANY COLLECTORS WERE PUT ON NOTICE AND MANY COLLECTORS WERE MADE AWARE OF AN ISSUE WHICH SEEMED SO LUDICROUS THAT IT IS LEGAL!!!!!!! Yes, the thread did not take the form of "name names", "who is doing this", BUT IT ACCOMPLISHED THE SAME THING I BELIEVE. FOR THE MOST PART, THE PRACTICE IS INTOLERABLE BY THE COLLECTING PUBLIC. A DEALER OR COLLECTOR ENGAGING IN IT AFTER TODAY IS ACCUTELY AWARE OF THAT. True, we did not get the "Perry Mason" finish you wanted with collectors hung at the stake. But, we got a awareness to an important issue and a near consensus that the practice would not be tolerated. Did the "ends justify the means", not to you obviously. That's OK-YOU ARE ONLY -1- VOTE. Wondercoin.

jmwarren · December 31, 2001 7:26AM

Well, I apologize for my crude language. But, like I said, we are all big boys around here from what I've seen, and we don't have to be lied to in order to understand certain concepts. Instead of sitting around in the wee hours of the morning trying to come up with a fake lie that the pee-on's could comprehend, you should of just brought up the issue. My opinion won't change, and I have no respect for any of the original schemers, and will have nothing to do with any of you. Happy New Year.

HD CONFIRMED IT WASN'T TRUE AS EXPECTED!

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