HD CONFIRMED IT WASN'T TRUE AS EXPECTED!
wondercoin
Posts: 16,953 ✭✭✭✭✭
NOTICE: SINCE ENOUGH FOLKS WERE OBVIOUSLY BOTHERED BY THIS "DRAMATIZATION"/POST IN YEAR 2001, I HAVE DECIDED TO DELETE IT TO AVOID SIMILAR FEELINGS IN 2002! FEEL FREE TO PM ME THOUGH FOR A COPY OF THE ORIGINAL POST. HAPPY NEW YEARS! Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
0
Comments
I have more faith in HD than some unnamed source.
09/07/2006
EMAIL:
relictrader@suddenlink.net
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I have looked at applying almost every type of financing arrangement to my sets because of the large amount of money tied up in an illiquid non-cash flow producing asset. A closed-end lease, particularly if it were a sale and lease back, would be ideal for estate planning for someone with health problems(as in my case). This arrangement would allow the person to enjoy his coins but his family would not have the problem of disposing of them from the estate. This type of arm's length lease would not be cheap if the lessor priced it properly to compensate for price volitility and carrying cost. I don't think I would have a problem with this type of arrangement in the registry. I decided against this approach because it is expensive.
On the other hand finding a buddy who has some great coins in the vault and paying him a nominal fee to register them in my name, might be a lot less acceptable.
Wondercoin, I am surprised that you didn't have a private discussion with HD before going public with a questionable rumor.
_____________________
My Other Hobby
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
However, if anyone wants to lease registering rights
to some of my coins (a fool and his money and all that...),
please PM me.
-Keith H
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
Mitch - your source only made a comment. That's your icon in the corner. You started the thread, not your source.
As to this post, using a source that is self proclaimed to be unreliable, to make claims in a negative nature with no initial verification is in real poor taste.
<< <i>HD: Say it isn't true!! I just heard (from a somewhat unreliable source, so I want to verify it) that it might be possible that you do not actually own many of the coins in your vast Registry collections, but, rather, you lease them!!! Closed end 5 year leases at modest monthly lease payments, so you don't have to actually purchase the coins, but can continue to win each Registry contest you engage in. I understand the benefit of leasing and avoiding the "loss" of driving the coins out of the "showroom", but, I am not sure if PCGS accepts leased coins in their Registry sets?? If they do, perhaps this is the new business of 2002?? >>
<< <i>Question: (1) Do you have any leased coins in your existing Registry sets?; (2) Do you believe it is permissible for Registry participants to use leased coins in their Registry sets?; (3) If the answer to questions 1 and 2 are "yes" and "yes", will you reveal your sources for such leased merchandise? >>
<< <i>If you do not lease, I will reprimand my poor source for starting this thread. But, in that case, I would also be interested if you believe leased coins are proper in a registry set, so long as they are only leased to one person at a time, at any given time. What about "lease to own" deals? Wondercoin. >>
WOW!!!
I had to edit this because I formatted it wrong.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
PCGS THE ONLY WAY TO GO
Ed
but i doubt anyone would create a fake set or rent one...but if renting is ok...I have about 6 statehood proof sets....all 69dcams which can be rented for a fair price
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
<< <i>I think Mitch meant this as a joke. >>
Well if that is true he needs to start using Emotion icons in his posts.
Wondercoins- Not fun. Not funny.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Happy New Year, all.
edited to reflect the original intent of the post
Isn't there a small part of you that wants to scream, "NO"! If you don't own the coin, then the Registry is only reflecting your ability at locating the coin and then buying the 'rights' to the insert.
That taints the Registries IMHO.
Whether there is any truth to this or not, consider this:
1. High's Complete Type Set is probably worth well over a million dollars, based strictly on the average grade for the coins. What dealer, or group of dealers, is going to be willing to sit on that kind of inventory just so someone can rent a certificate number. There are enough collectors out there looking for these pieces that they would be easy to sell.
2. High is constantly upgrading his sets, which can't be easy to do considering his averages are already near the top on each set he is active in. Since the odds of a single dealer being able to supply him with all of his material is low, that must mean that we have collusion among many dealers to do this.
3. High gave us a peek at the Modern Type, 1900-present Set a long time ago when he hit 100%. The coins were well-matched, and appeared to be put together by a collector who made some serious effort to assemble the set. Secretive doesn't necessarily mean that you are trying to hide something wrong.
4. If High has a great source that can come up with great coins like this on a regular basis, does anyone honestly expect him to share the source?
Keith
You have gone over the limit on this post. It is none of your business if he/she owns or leases the coins/inserts. With tactics like this, I would never buy anything from you, nor would I ever sell to you. Cheers.
HD----I agree with you. It is no ones business. If you have the source, then by all means, use it. Cheers.
Rampage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Have you used a credit card to buy a coin? Do you think there should be a rule that you could not register the coin until the card balance was paid off? Does it seem morally wrong?
My point is that the market place is very effecient and it is naive to think that any one can get something for "pennies on the dollar" for any thing in life.
My feeling is that a market rate lease is no different than any other financing method. It's a matter of personal choice.
When putting together a $500,000 to $1 million dollar set, should a collector be restricted on his financing choice? Home equity loans?
Credit cards? Mortgage on the yacht or plane? I don't think so.
Whether the collection is great or small, it is the collector's. How he finances it, like most financial matters in this country, is a personal matter.
I agree with HD. As long as the coins are under his control,it is certainly none my business how he pays for that privilege. And I'm his most dedicated competitor.
(copied from another thread to this one where it's more appropriate)
_____________________
My Other Hobby
Mitch, what do you think of the legitimacy of leasing coins for the registry sets?
Since you started the thread, I'd like to know your opinion.
Ken
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
Wondercoin, would you please comment?
*I'm still a believer that a PM is exactly that- or I'd share it now.
<< <i>
HD wrote:
Wondercoin,
My flabber is a little gasted at all this. I guess I feel like my collecting "habits" are my own business and not subject to public debate.
High Desert >>
This seems a TAD BIT HIPOCRITICAL.....YOU are the one trying to make your collection very public by being #1 in set registries, and in my opinion, if what Mitch said is true, by means of a less than..lets say...honorable way, and therefore, YOU open them for debate.
09/07/2006
Or how about this well know registry set of Morgan Dollars:
NFL Set
"It was called the "NFL Set" because the owners were former and present stars of the National Football League. The focus of this set was the best condition possible, with superb eye appeal of major importance as well. This set was sold at Auction in 2001."
This set was not owned by one person, but a group of people. "Leasing" would be no different.
Kyle
First- Wondercoin I feel what you did by publicly announcing High Desert of any questionable actions without first getting all the facts was wrong and shows bad judgment on your part. I have come to expect more from you. I do feel however you had the best interest of the group in mind.
Second- High Desert it has been said you do not own some of the coins in your registry set-while it is you business if you do or not. I feel it would be in everyone’s best interest to say once and for all “yes I own these coins or I currently am using someone else’s cert numbers for my set.” So we can just move on. I think this matter needs to be cleared up with the truth, and you are the only one who can do that.
Mike
HD, it's not a difficult question, DO YOU LEASE COINS? YES OR NO???
I have a friend who has been extremely succesful in business. He also collects coins and has a multi-million dollar collection, but could care less about the registry set concept. Is it OK if I get his permission to use the inserts from his collection on an exclusive basis for 10 years and use them to "build" some remarkable registry sets? Certainly legally it would be, but ethically it would be very wrong in my opinion.
Greg
Hello All !!
Late last night, two guys, who should have been in bed catching some ZZZZs, ended up IMing each other regarding the state of the universe. As one thing lead to another, the subject of leasing coins came up almost out of the blue (black?). We had seen some evidence of collectors keeping coins in their sets they really did not own and the idea of "borrowing" other collectors' coins. Upon discussion, the two sleep deprived "gentlemen" concluded that it might be interesting to see who was watching out there. Thus was hatched The New Year's Eve 2002 Plot !!!
Before good sense had any chance at all to prevail, one of us brazenly accused the other of dastardly deeds. And continuing the deception after actually obtaining the aforementioned ZZZZs, the other one of us coyly justified his "actions".
As suspected, the members of this forum responded in widely varying fashion as befits the widely varying views of each and all. And each response, if we may say, was well considered and focused upon the issues important to each person.
Our intent was to throw out the old and ring in the new with a thought provoking subject. From your responses we have suceeded admirably/disgustingly/shockingly. We might even suggest that this could happen if members keep getting surprised (shocked?) with Registry Set changes.
For the record:
---wondercoin does not blindside forum members without checking sources first (usually!)
---HighDesert does not lease coins (usually!)
Thanks to everyone and let's keep the ideas coming in 2002 !! The goal is to make Registry collecting a rewarding and meaningful experience. Happy New Year to ALL !!!!
Respectfully submitted,
HighDesert
edited for clear meaning. Wondercoin.
(2) NO WHERE IN PCGS OR NGC RULES IS THIS PROHIBITED THAT I AM AWARE OF!!! THIS IS A WAKEUP CALL.
Maybe it would have been better to "name names" and accuse those "immoral" (yet, not illegal) collectors of their dirty deeds??? But, this was a wakeup call. Think about it. Will someone hesitate to register that coin improperly, or fail to remove a sold coin now after this? I hope so. That was my main purpose. To raise an issue MOST PEOPLE WERE NOT EVEN AWARE OF!!! Happy New Year. Wondercoin
That was interesting!
I am glad to hear the HD doesn't lease coins (Usually at least!). I can just see the new dealer's ad:
Lease you coins at our discount lease rates at beat everyone in your registry race!
"Leasing" a coin would certainly be different then buying one on credit. Just like when you buy a house with a 30 year loan, you are considered the owner (because you pay for the house, and just owe on the loan), it is different then when you "rent" or "lease" a house. You have no ownership, and clearly if this is done with coins, they should not be listed by the person leasing the coins.
I thought it was an interesting topic, but I thought we had to watch for tricks on April fools day, not New Years eve!
JJacks
EMAIL:
relictrader@suddenlink.net
said is that it's none of your business.
So I would say, "It's none of your business."
-Keith H
ps On a semi-unrelated topic, if you disagree with the idea of
leasing, let your voice be heard. Email PCGS.
Not exactly. A controversial subject was raised, MANY COLLECTORS WERE PUT ON NOTICE AND MANY COLLECTORS WERE MADE AWARE OF AN ISSUE WHICH SEEMED SO LUDICROUS THAT IT IS LEGAL!!!!!!! Yes, the thread did not take the form of "name names", "who is doing this", BUT IT ACCOMPLISHED THE SAME THING I BELIEVE. FOR THE MOST PART, THE PRACTICE IS INTOLERABLE BY THE COLLECTING PUBLIC. A DEALER OR COLLECTOR ENGAGING IN IT AFTER TODAY IS ACCUTELY AWARE OF THAT. True, we did not get the "Perry Mason" finish you wanted with collectors hung at the stake. But, we got a awareness to an important issue and a near consensus that the practice would not be tolerated. Did the "ends justify the means", not to you obviously. That's OK-YOU ARE ONLY -1- VOTE. Wondercoin.