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Baseball Rule Question
stown
Posts: 11,321 ✭✭✭
in Sports Talk
Situation:
Runner on 1st, no outs, and a 3-2 pitch.
Check swing, ump behind the plate calls a ball, and issues the walk.
Both batter and runner on 1st start to advance.
Catcher calls for swing appeal to the ump at 1st, who calls it a strike and the batter is declared out.
-------------------------------
Is it a dead ball since the runner started to advance to second under the impression it was a free pass?
Or
Can the catcher try to get the runner in a run-down since it's a live ball?
I dunno but can someone enlighten me?
Runner on 1st, no outs, and a 3-2 pitch.
Check swing, ump behind the plate calls a ball, and issues the walk.
Both batter and runner on 1st start to advance.
Catcher calls for swing appeal to the ump at 1st, who calls it a strike and the batter is declared out.
-------------------------------
Is it a dead ball since the runner started to advance to second under the impression it was a free pass?
Or
Can the catcher try to get the runner in a run-down since it's a live ball?
I dunno but can someone enlighten me?
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
0
Comments
<< <i>The ball is in play. >>
Are you saying this because you know it to be a fact or making an assumption?
I think I know but what's the official rule? Don't know how to google that
Thanks
Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing. Should the base umpire call the pitch a strike, the strike call shall prevail. Baserunners must be alert to the possibility that the base umpire on appeal from the plate umpire may reverse the call of a ball to the call of a strike, in which event the runner is in jeopardy of being out by the catcher’s throw. Also, a catcher must be alert in a base stealing situation if a ball call is reversed to a strike by the base umpire upon appeal from the plate umpire. The ball is in play on appeal on a half swing
"The Villain"
Shiba Rescue Organization
A Shiba Inu is a terrible thing to waste!
<< <i>Situation:
Runner on 1st, no outs, and a 3-2 pitch.
Check swing, ump behind the plate calls a ball, and issues the walk.
Both batter and runner on 1st start to advance.
Catcher calls for swing appeal to the ump at 1st, who calls it a strike and the batter is declared out.
-------------------------------
Is it a dead ball since the runner started to advance to second under the impression it was a free pass?
Or
Can the catcher try to get the runner in a run-down since it's a live ball?
I dunno but can someone enlighten me? >>
Having watched and played in thousands of baseball games, I would absolutely presume it's a dead ball. I've never seen or even heard of this possibility. And I've never seen anyone try to steal a base in the confusion and arguing that could ensue after the changed call.
Of course I just figured out that you run to first base after a hit and not to third base, so I've been a little slow learning the game.
<< <i>Rule 9.02(c) Comment: The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask his partner for help on a half swing when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike. The manager may not complain that the umpire made an improper call, but only that he did not ask his partner for help. Field umpires must be alerted to the request from the plate umpire and quickly respond. Managers may not protest the call of a ball or strike on the pretense they are asking for information about a half swing.
Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing. Should the base umpire call the pitch a strike, the strike call shall prevail. Baserunners must be alert to the possibility that the base umpire on appeal from the plate umpire may reverse the call of a ball to the call of a strike, in which event the runner is in jeopardy of being out by the catcher’s throw. Also, a catcher must be alert in a base stealing situation if a ball call is reversed to a strike by the base umpire upon appeal from the plate umpire. The ball is in play on appeal on a half swing >>
See I told ya I was slow learning the game. LOL
<< <i>Rule 9.02(c) Comment: The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask his partner for help on a half swing when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike. The manager may not complain that the umpire made an improper call, but only that he did not ask his partner for help. Field umpires must be alerted to the request from the plate umpire and quickly respond. Managers may not protest the call of a ball or strike on the pretense they are asking for information about a half swing.
Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing. Should the base umpire call the pitch a strike, the strike call shall prevail. Baserunners must be alert to the possibility that the base umpire on appeal from the plate umpire may reverse the call of a ball to the call of a strike, in which event the runner is in jeopardy of being out by the catcher’s throw. Also, a catcher must be alert in a base stealing situation if a ball call is reversed to a strike by the base umpire upon appeal from the plate umpire. The ball is in play on appeal on a half swing >>
While I appreciate your research, it does not specifically address my situation.
The ruling is still open.....
Edited to clarify: When initially issuing the walk, it is believed that the ball is ruled dead. If the above referenced scenario stated the count rather than open ended, I would accept it. But unfortunately, it doesn't.
<< <i>While I appreciate your research, it does not specifically address my situation.
The ruling is still open.....
Edited to clarify: When initially issuing the walk, it is believed that the ball is ruled dead. If the above referenced scenario stated the count rather than open ended, I would accept it. But unfortunately, it doesn't. >>
I think the count and runners on base is irrelavent in any situation as the home plate umpire on an appeal call gives way to the base umpire for a ruling (the home plate umpire does not have to grant the appeal request to the manager or catcher but when he does he then defers authority to the base umpire). As such his preliminary call of a ball is no longer valid and the base umpires ruling is then in effect. If the base umpire calls the check swing a strike then the batter is called out and the baserunner on 1st base can then be picked off.
Edited to add: Why is it believed that the ball is ruled dead when initially issuing the walk? Was time called? A called ball four does not constitute a dead ball. Ex.- A player on 2nd base with first base open can advance to third base on a called ball four. There is no dead ball simply because ball four is called.
"The Villain"
Shiba Rescue Organization
A Shiba Inu is a terrible thing to waste!
<< <i>Edited to add: Why is it believed that the ball is ruled dead when initially issuing the walk? Was time called? A called ball four does not constitute a dead ball. Ex.- A player on 2nd base with first base open can advance to third base on a called ball four. There is no dead ball simply because ball four is called. >>
Correct. But the runners who are forced to advance by the walk can go to the base they are forced to without liability to be put out. If they choose to go *beyond* the base they are entitled to advance to without peril, then they can be put out by the fielders. See Rule 7.04(b).
<< <i>
<< <i>Edited to add: Why is it believed that the ball is ruled dead when initially issuing the walk? Was time called? A called ball four does not constitute a dead ball. Ex.- A player on 2nd base with first base open can advance to third base on a called ball four. There is no dead ball simply because ball four is called. >>
Correct. But the runners who are forced to advance by the walk can go to the base they are forced to without liability to be put out. If they choose to go *beyond* the base they are entitled to advance to without peril, then they can be put out by the fielders. See Rule 7.04(b). >>
Rule 7.04(b) does not specifically address this situation the way I read it. Says if the runner advances PAST the base given.
7.04
Each runner, other than the batter, may without liability to be put out, advance one base when --
(b) The batter’s advance without liability to be put out forces the runner to vacate his base, or when the batter hits a fair ball that touches another runner or the umpire before such ball has been touched by, or has passed a fielder, if the runner is forced to advance;
Rule 7.04(b) Comment: A runner forced to advance without liability to be put out may advance past the base to which he is entitled only at his peril. If such a runner, forced to advance, is put out for the third out before a preceding runner, also forced to advance, touches home plate, the run shall score.
Play. Two out, bases full, batter walks but runner from second is overzealous and runs past third base toward home and is tagged out on a throw by the catcher. Even though two are out, the run would score on the theory that the run was forced home by the base on balls and that all the runners needed to do was proceed and touch the next base.
<< <i>Rule 7.04(b) does not specifically address this situation the way I read it. Says if the runner advances PAST the base given. >>
I know it doesn't. I wasn't answering your question; I was addressing another.
[Edit to add: I do believe the runners are in jeopardy of being put out per 9.02(c) given that the play is not really "dead" when a runner is forced to advance on a walk. For example, if there's a runner on 1st who is forced to advance to second, he *could* try to advance to 3rd but would do so at his own peril. If the play were truly dead, he could not even try to advance. Doesn't seem all that fair and sporting, but that's how I'd read the rules, and there's no crying in baseball.]
It isn't officially a walk when the ump signals it, because the rules state that there is still the appeal to verify the decision. As a baserunner, if there is a check swing on a full count you should be taught to simply STAY PUT and await the final judgement. If it is indeed verified a walk, then you take the same advancement you would have gotten if you were being impatient on the initial call.
If you are indeed being impatient, and you choose to run at the first signal, then you are putting yourself in peril because it can still be ruled a strikeout...and you may end up with a CS too
In other words....
Check swing with two strikes...STAY PUT AND WAIT FOR THE OFFICIAL CALL! You are more than welcome to run before the final judgement is made, but you are at risk to be thrown out if the final judgement deems it to be a strikeout.
It isn't unfair, as it is actually more fair because the umpire with the better view is making a better call...and all other players actions have to await the possibility of this appeal process so that the right call is made...before they proceed with their base.
I knew you would come in handy some day
Doug
<< <i>Today in Cubs vs Cardinals game Cedeno started running on 3-2 count...ball four was called...he must not have heard - slid into second base safely but over slid the bag...then was tagged out. Out catcher to shortstop. >>
I have seen that happen a few times.