Some Help Needed Please With A T-206 Christy Mathewson (Proof) Card

wondercoin

Hi everyone. I am a PCGS authorized coin dealer and do very, very little with baseball cards. However, back in the late 1980's or early 1990's (I believe it was 1991?), I did assist a collector in buying the unique Proof Christie Mathewson T-206 card out of the Sotherbys sale. For those of you that might have the Sotherby's catalog - this was the lot immediately following the sale of the famous Honus Wagner card when Sotherby's first sold it.

In any event, I submitted this unique Proof Mathewson T-206 to PSA this month and after several weeks of analysis and investigation by PSA, they determined the following:

1. The card has a different placement of Mathewson's cap as well as some other subtle differences with the actual T-206 card. PSA believes the card is likely the "artist's draft" of the final work used for the official T-206 card.

2. The PSA investigation could not locate another example of such an artist's draft known out in the market place for either any other T-206 card or similar vintage baseball card known of that era. The closest thing PSA could locate is a Turkey Red card where the border of the card was slightly different than the regular issue card - but, nothing like this where the actual design was different.

3. PSA believes the card to be "no question" legitimate and authentic BUT, PSA HAS STATED THAT IT DOES NOT GRADE PROOF VINTAGE BASEBALL CARDS and that rule is clearly posted in their terms and conditions. PSA has advised me that "the door remains open" however and if I can present concrete evidence to PSA as to the origin and/or nature of the card, they will reconsider officially recognizing it.

Can any experts of the T-206 series out there shed any light on this unique Mathewson card? It was also suggested to me that I contact Mastros tomorrow to discuss the card, which I plan to do. Thank you in advance for any assistance you can provide to me and the collector I am assisting with this card.

Wondercoin (Mitch)

goose3

I would suggest you add a scan of the card, both front and back.

wondercoin

Goose - Good idea. After getting the card back from PSA this week, I placed it in the bank vault. But, I'll get a camera out there later this week and post scans. Wondercoin

cwazzy

Is there any way you can post a pic? I don't have access to the catalog. I won't know anything about it but I would love to see the card and I'm sure it would help others that actually know the series.

Chris

wondercoin

Chris: Yes, I will get a camera out to the bank this week. I will also ask PSA if they took scans of the card while they had it during their 2 week investigation.

Wondercoin

cwazzy

<< <i>Chris: Yes, I will get a camera out to the bank this week. I will also ask PSA if they took scans of the card while they had it during their 2 week investigation.

Wondercoin >>



Sorry. I didn't mean to sound so redundant. The other two posted their responses as I was typing mine. I am very curious about the card. Someday I hope to be able to afford something that nice.

Chris

mikeschmidt

Keith Olbermann is probably the expert on proof T-206 cards. If it is indeed authentic, it is one of those cards for which a PSA certification truly won't add much value.

~ms

qmayer

Maybe see what SGC has to say about it?

jmbkb4

Hey,

can you post a scan?? just kidding...


1. I think the card being graded by one of the "big 2" (PSA or SGC) would add tremendous value to the card. It might be reasonable to see what SGC thinks. If PSA truly thinks it is authentic, then they should have slabbed it as such. How in the hell could anyone offer indisputable "proof" of its existence and offer provenance on a 100+ year old proof card???

baseballfanatic

If it is a proof or an artists draft, I dont see what PSA can do since they grade neither. The line " "the door remains open" however and if I can present concrete evidence to PSA as to the origin", I would think the auction catalog along with examing the card itself is about all anyone could do, so if they wont grade proofs, they wont be of much help.

Bill Mastro is your best bet, but unless you want to consign it for auction, I dont think there will be much he can do other than give you the same information about the card that is already known

Sgc could probably give you an Authentic Proof label if you call and explain the situation.

Have you tried the network54 boards?

mikeschmidt

SGC will *absolutely not* grade T-206 proofs. I've talked to them about this on more than one occassion (as I have an example that originated, at least most recently, from the Barry Halper collection)

Marc

baseballfanatic

<< <i>SGC will *absolutely not* grade T-206 proofs. I've talked to them about this on more than one occassion (as I have an example that originated, at least most recently, from the Barry Halper collection)

Marc >>




Thanks for the heads up Marc.

I guess the only one that would "grade" it then would be Alan Hager (waiting for laughter in the background)...

mikeschmidt

I guess my point was that if the card were consigned to one of the top-end auction outfits (REA or Mastro), I think they would do enough background research to ensure the authenticity/provenance of the card. With the auction house's reputation at least partly on the line, I think that it would matter much less in one of those places to auction off the card in a raw state. Obviously, on Ebay or something, it would deter many potential bidders. But I think if the provenance to Sotheby's auction can be firmly established -- I think that and the opinion of Mastro/REA would significantly help in the sale.

~ms

mikeschmidt

In the context of the T-206 sets, there are many proof known to exist, primarily in a unique form. They come in a few different varieties:

Same pose, no name on bottom

Same pose, name printed on bottom

Different pose, player included in set

Player not included in T-206 set.

Although all T-206 legitimate proof cards are extra ordinarily rare, the first two are the most common of the bunch, and "only" sell for a few thousand a piece, when and if they come up for sale. (pricing is hard to say -- as there have been very few examples to hit the public marketplace in the last five years)

The latter two are both exceptionally rare and valuable. FWIW, I think the vast majority of proofs that still exist to this day reside in a small handful of collections -- with a few extraneous people (like myself) perhaps having a type example. But the different poses and the players not included in the set are very rare, and obviously such a card of a HOF'er is a very significant card, especially of a very high-profile HOFer like Mathewson.

mikeschmidt

Well I am on the subject, here is what one of the first type proofs looks like:

wondercoin

Thanks guys for your helpful thoughts. With coins, there is a fairly similar situation with "patterns", which PCGS routinely grades - there are upwards of 2000 different patterns known though. Here, I am being told this "artist draft" is possibly unique (written before reading the last post which addresses this).

Just curious - Mark - why won't the grading services slab proof vintage cards?

Wondercoin

mikeschmidt

<< <i>Just curious - Mark - why won't the grading services slab proof vintage cards?
>>



There are many pre-war issues whereby the actual definition of "proof" is not clearly defined -- and there is an abuse within certain circles to try and exploit this for financial advantage. For example, I have definitely seen numerous instances whereby certain sellers will try and sell what was likely printer's scrap as "proof" cards in an effort to maximize value, whereas a true proof is probably something more akin to what printers reviewed and used before finalizing the production process for a particular card/set.

I actually have seen at least one T-206 proof in a PSA holder...so there is an off-chance that they may make an exception and "Authenticate" the card.

To some extent, with the concept of proofs being unique, one must do much more extensive research and due diligence into the production process, printing patterns, etc. to even firmly establish that something may be a proof than with a normally issued sports card.

Also, given that there is a strong financial incentive for a "proof" card, there may be increased incentive for potentially unsavoury types to try and manufacture a proof card...

wondercoin

I actually have seen at least one T-206 proof in a PSA holder...

which one, if you do not mind me asking? And, under which category did the card fall (of the 4 categories you outlined)?

Thanks. Wondercoin

mikeschmidt

Don't recall.

I thought I saved a scan, but can't seem to place it.

Marc

1989FleerBillRipkencollector

FWIW I have seen PSA T206's labeled printing incomplete. If thats the same at all.