Question re. Roman emperor portrait set

lordmarcovan

Since I only have one old Sear book and not the multivolume thing yet, and am finding the coverage a bit, shall we say, abridged, I have a question for those of you in the know.

Are there any emperors I will be unable to touch for 500 bucks or less per coin? (I'm sure there are a couple.)

Remember, I am not interested in empresses, family members of emperors, obscure usurpers, etc. (Well, those are interesting- very much so- but they are outside of my focus.) I just want the "main list" of Roman emperors, from Augustus onwards to whatever cutoff point seems logical for my budget (all the way to Romulus Augustulus, if I can make it.) The set will be a mix of denominations and will include provincial coinage if that offers a less-expensive way to get a coin with a particular emperor's portrait and name.

Who are the real stoppers? Are there any emperors that I will be unable to touch for 1,000 bucks or less per coin?

These will be stoppers to me. If there are only one or two, and they aren't much above the $1,000 threshold, I might be able to do them one day, but if there are more than three or four thousand-dollar-plus stoppers, I might have to skip over them. Which I hate doing in any collection, since one cannot claim "completeness" then. (I realize that true "completeness" of a Roman Imperial coin collection is impossible, for any budget, but you know what I mean.)

I won't even bother with the emperors who were one-coin wonders, for obvious reasons (particularly if that one coin happens to be in the British Museum- somehow I don't think they would be willing to help a novice collector out.)

Ideally, I would like the upper limit of my budget to be the $500 coins and as few of those as possible. Obviously this excludes gold aureii, but I do have one gold coin already- an ex-Eliasberg Zeno solidus. (It's holed- bought for my Holey Gold Hat, as it happens).

I won't be particularly choosy about grades for the tough stuff, either. In fact, the technical grade is a secondary consideration for me throughout the set- I mostly just care about a nice clear portrait and if possible, a clear obverse legend showing the name.

Help me map out my set, if you can. Who's in? Who's out? Who's gonna cost me the most?

I suppose what I am saying is, I want the "Dansco version". Pretend for a moment that Dansco or some other company is producing a Roman Emperor set. (The album would have some wacky-lookin' holes in the pages, wouldn't it? LOL). What is the simple list? Yes, I know it is a long one.

Those who spare the time to advise me will have my sincere gratitude.

ColinCMR

Aoother consideration might be, do you want only coins with the emperor as Augustus and not just with the title of a Caeser. And will you be happy with Posthumous or 'issued in the name of' coins, or strictly lifetime issues?

lordmarcovan

OK, here is the list I am working from, unless y'all suggest some omissions or additions (culled this from the table of contents of Michael Grant's The Roman Emperors, a non-numismatic book I got from Aethelred). Help me divide the dynasties or periods, too. I suppose for now I will just use the headings in the book as categories, if they are a logical way to divide categories in a coin collection. They sound an awful lot like what they are; chapter headings in a book. I would've used the list on Michael (Aethelred's) web page, but that includes some one-coin wonders and probably some obscure usurpers as well. And the Sear book was not much help in mapping a set out, since it has listings for all the empresses, usurpers, emperors' fathers, brothers, cousins, dogs, etc.- anybody who issued a coin. (Well, okay, maybe the dogs didn't issue any coins.)

Here are the headings, based on Michael Grant's book. Michael Swoveland (our own Aethelred) subdivided the periods/dynasties a little differently on his website, I noticed. Let me know the emperors I can forget about, or, if necessary, where to cut off the list and/or which specific dynasties or periods I should focus on (though initially, I find that the idea of hopskotching around the whole list rather fun, instead of daunting.)

Emperors in bold are the ones I already have a coin for.

The book has little bracket thingies I can't type here for the joint rulers, so I just put joint reigns on the same line.

---

PART I: THE JULIO-CLAUDIAN DYNASTY

Augustus, 31 BC-14 AD
Tiberius, 14-37 AD
Gaius (Caligula), 37-41
Claudius, 41-54
Nero, 54-68

---

PART II: THE YEAR OF FOUR EMPERORS AND THE FLAVIAN DYNASTY

Galba, 68-69
Otho, 69
Vitellius, 69
Vespasian, 69-79
Titus, 79-81
Domitian, 81-96

---

PART III: THE ADOPTIVE AND ANTONINE EMPERORS

Nerva 96-98
Trajan, 98-117
Hadrian, 117-138
Antoninus Pius, 138-161
Marcus Aurelius, 161-180, and Lucius Verus, 161-169
Commodus 180-192

---

PART IV: THE HOUSE OF SEVERUS

Pertinax, 193
Didius Julianus, 193
Septimius Severus, 193-211
Pescennius Niger, 193-195
Clodius Albinus, 195-197
Caracalla, 211-217, and Geta, 211
Macrinus, 217-218
Elagabalus, 218-222
Severus Alexander, 222-235

---

PART V: THE AGE OF CRISIS

Maximinus I, 235-238
Gordian I, 238, and Gordian II, 238
Balbinus, 238, and Pupienus, 238
Gordian III, 238-244
Philip I, 244-249
Trajanus Decius, 249-251
Trebonianus Gallus, 251-253
Aemilian, 253
Valerian, 253-260, and Gallienus, 253-268
Postumus, 260-268

---

PART VI: MILITARY RECOVERY

Claudius II Gothicus, 268-270
Quintillus, 270
Aurelian, 270-275
Tacitus, 275-276
Florian, 276
Probus, 276-282
Carus, 282-283
Carinus, 283-285, and Numerian, 283-284

---

PART VII: THE TETRARCHY AND THE HOUSE OF CONSTANTINE

Diocletian, 284-305, and Maximian, 286-305 and 307-308
Carausius, 286/7-293
Constantius I Chlorus, 305-306, and Galerius, 305-311
Severus II, 306-307
Maxentius, 306-312
Constantine I the Great, 306-337, and Licinius, 308-324
Maximinus II Daia, 310-313
Constanine II, 337-340, and Constantius II, 337-361, and Constans I, 337-350
Magnentius, 350-353
Julian the Apostate, 361-363
Jovian, 363-364

---

PART VIII: THE HOUSE OF VALENTINIAN

Valentinian I, 364-375, and Valens, 364-378 (East)
Gratian, 367-383, and Valentinian II, 375-392, and Theodosius I the Great, 379-395 (East, then whole empire)
Magnus Maximus, 383-388
Arcadius, 395-408 (East), and Honorius, 395-423
Constantine III, 407-411
Theodosius II, 408-450 (East)
Constantius III, 421
Johannes, 423-425
Valentinian III, 425-455

---

PART IX: THE SURVIVAL OF THE EAST AND FALL OF THE WEST

Marcian, 450-457 (East)
Petronius Maximus, 455
Avitus, 455-456
Leo I the Great, 457-474 (East)
Majorian, 457-461
Libius Severus, 461-465
Anthemius, 467-472
Olybrius, 472
Glycerius, 473-474
Julius Nepos, 474-475 and 477(?)-480
Zeno, 474-475 and 476-491 (East)
Basiliscus, 475-476 (East)
Romulus Augustulus, 475-476

---

lordmarcovan

<< <i>Aoother consideration might be, do you want only coins with the emperor as Augustus and not just with the title of a Caeser. And will you be happy with Posthumous or 'issued in the name of' coins, or strictly lifetime issues? >>

I would buy posthumous or "issued in the name of" issues if necessary. I must admit I have been a bit foggy about the distinction between titles like "Augustus" and "Caesar", both of which double as names of individuals and as titles for later individuals. Can you help clarify and enlighten me, there? This whole project will be a very educational one for me.

Aethelred

Think of "Augustus" as president and "Caesar" as VP.

TitusFlavius

Michael Grant's list looks pretty good, at least up through Carinus and Numerian. It leaves out the minor usurpers, but keeps all the major players from the civil wars. My knowledge is based largely on Sears' new books, so maybe someone else can chime in for Diocletian and later.

With a $500 cap the only real pre-Tetrarchy stoppers on the list are Gordian I and II. They reigned only briefly, but weren't just your average usurpers. They were supported by the Senate against the low-born Maximinus I. This struggle between the Senate and the Army is an important characteristic of the Crisis of the Third Century. Of course Gordian III is the grandson and nephew, respectively, of the elder Gordiani so you could have him fill in for the whole family. Another way to cut down on the number of names and tougher issues would be to only go with the victor in periods of civil war. This takes care of Pertinax and Didius Julianus, the only others before Diocletian that could be problematic.

One last thing: If portraits are your main interest, start with the early emperors and work forward. Portraiture declines over the course of the Third and Fourth Centuries and after Constantine they all look sort of similar (except for Julian II, who looks like all the others but with a beard )

lordmarcovan

<< <i>Think of "Augustus" as president and "Caesar" as VP. >>

That works for me. Thanks.



<< <i>Of course Gordian III is the grandson and nephew, respectively, of the elder Gordiani so you could have him fill in for the whole family. >>

And I had two bloody gorgeous, AU-quality antoninanii of Gordian III a year or two ago, but sold them. Ah, well.

"Winners only" for the Civil Wars, eh? I suppose that is a pretty good suggestion, if the losers are supertough to find coins for. But I would include them too, if possible. Give the underdogs their due.



<< <i>One last thing: If portraits are your main interest, start with the early emperors and work forward. Portraiture declines over the course of the Third and Fourth Centuries and after Constantine they all look sort of similar (except for Julian II, who looks like all the others but with a beard) >>

Thanks. I had pretty much noticed this, and I certainly prefer the high reliefs and realistic styles of the First century. At first I thought I would just stick to the first two centuries, but now I think it would be far more enjoyable to travel the entire spectrum, even though the portraiture isn't as nice later on. The radiate-crown issues are starting to grow on me now.

Aethelred

I think you'll get a lot more pleasure out of the early Empire, to me the golden age fo rthe coinage was about Tiberius to about Trajan with the high point of that period being the large bronze coins of Nero, Vespasian and Titus. To my eye the style of Imperial portraits starts to decline ever so slightly with Trajan.

WillieBoyd2

Because there are so many varities of Roman (and ancient) coins, one has to specialize.
Roman Imperial Coins, a popular catalog, runs to 10 large volumes.

I have been collecting some Roman coins because they are "Conquerer of Parthia" issues.
Because of the similarity to current events (Parthia was basically Iraq).

The Politically Correct should note that Roman coins are the product of slave labor.

Aethelred

<< <i>

The Politically Correct should note that Roman coins are the product of slave labor.

>>



Is that really the case? I have always thought of those who minted ancient coins and much more those who engraved them, as skilled craftsmen.

lordmarcovan

<< <i>I have always thought of those who minted ancient coins and much more those who engraved them, as skilled craftsmen >>

That doesn't preclude status as a slave. Lots of slaves in the American South were skilled craftsmen, too.

Rickc300

OK, I am now hopelessly confused! I thought I could copy the original post and have a decent idea of emperor portraits to collect (yes, I was planning to hijack the idea as it is one I have been thinking about). I mentioned in a post a little while back wanting to get into this area. Rude and crude hand struck coinage is a complete turn on for me. I have a few (hundred) hand struck or pressed coins of the German states and Mexico that I love more than any other coins in my collection. I am now confused by this thread as to what to buy or look for or not buy as to make the adventure a total bust for me... I think I will just stick with the German stuff I know and keep acquiring the odd 8 reale that shows up that I understand and leave all this confusion to someone else. Give me a Whitman type sense of what is available/required with prices and I will be all over it in a heart beat! I will eventually learn these coins but will most likely buy coins already attributed and graded by others (hint to the dealers out there, there are buyers wanting to enter the market, IF YOU HAVE THE INFORMATION WE NEED to undertake this adventure)!
Thanks for your time and sorry to have ranted on your thread...
Rick

WillieBoyd2

The best online/internet database I have seen on Roman coins is Wildwinds.

Wildwinds Home

Wildwinds Roman

lordmarcovan

Rick- what rant? You pretty much speak my own mind. It is only confusion and lack of information that kept me from tackling this project for so long. I will let you know how it goes, and it would be nice to have somebody else doing the same thing that I could talk to, who isn't light-years ahead of me in knowledge on the topic. A fellow student, so to speak.

PS- Oh, and WB2- thanks. I already knew about Wildwinds, but I certainly will be spending more time there now that I am entering the field.

Sapyx

I have a few suggested alterations for your list:

Deletions:
Clodius Albinus, Postumus and Carausius - these were emperors of "breakaway empires", eventually reconquered by Rome. Other "emperors" in these two series were Victorinus, Marius, Tetricus I and II and Allectus. These are nevertheless normally considered a part of the Roman series, especially in the English-speaking world, because Britain was part of their breakaway empire and their coins are commonly found on that island.

Pescennius Niger was one of the "losers" you mention. He was neither Emperor in Rome itself or recognised by the Senate. Still, his coins are reasonably plentiful.

Addition
Philip II, son of Philip I, reigned jointly as emperor with his father.

lordmarcovan

Thanks. How tough is Philip II gonna be?

I wish I had a difficulty scale that went something like this, perhaps:

1- easily obtainable and inexpensive, usually can be had for less than $50
2- readily obtainable for less than $100
3- obtainable in the low to middle three-figure price range- less than $500
4- challenging and expensive, but obtainable in the $500-1,000 price range
5- difficult but collectible if one has $1,000 or more and a bit of patience
6- uncollectible for all practical purposes

Sapyx

<< <i>Thanks. How tough is Philip II gonna be? >>


Not too tough - only slightly more expensive than his dad - Philip I coins are among the cheapest in the series. In many cases, they aren't even certain which Philip the coin is supposed to be showing. Numismatists have unilaterally declared that any coins showing a bearded Philip are Philip I, a clean-shaved Philip are Philip II.


<< <i>I wish I had a difficulty scale... >>


You've got an old all-in-one Sear catalogue, yes? It should be good enough for a comparative scarcity indicator.

A couple of points that may make your quest easier:

Many Emperors did time as Caesar before being promoted to full Emperor, and their coinage as Caesar may be even cheaper than the Imperial coins. Philip II is a good example of this. He was Caesar for four years (244-247), Emperor for two (247-249); his Imperial coins are slightly more expensive. An extreme example of this is Constantine II: Caesar for twenty years, Emperor for four. His Imperial coins are much harder to find. It works the other way, too, of course - Caracalla was only Caesar for two years, and Emperor for eighteen - his Caesar coins are scarcer.

Don't discount the "Roman Provincial" series. Several emperors are much easier to find in the Provinces than the mainstream Roman series, and Provincials are usually much cheaper than their Roman equivalents. For example, the cheapest coins of Balbinus and Pupienus are their Alexandrian tetradrachms. Of course, the Provincials aren't as well catalogued, and they're normally in Greek, not Latin. Even if you don't want to consider them "real Roman coins", they make excellent place-holders until a "real one" comes along.

lordmarcovan

<< <i>For example, the cheapest coins of Balbinus and Pupienus are their Alexandrian tetradrachms >>

I will be sure to look for those, since I like tetradrachms, anyway. Far from excluding provincial coins, I think I will enjoy picking up the odd example, particularly for some of those emperors who'd be prohibitively expensive in the mainstream imperial coinage.

Thank you, Sapyx, for your advice so far, and thanks, everybody else. I think I am going to have fun with this set and I feel I may have more stamina toward it than my last abortive project; an AU liteside classic commem set in a Dansco, which I did for six months, got about a quarter of the way through, and just lost steam on. While I did not exactly tire of them, my budget and interest was not going to carry me all the way through that set.

While I could certainly never swear I'll finish this one, I am liking it better so far. Plus, it's nice to be back in the Dark. (I suppose ancients are the darkest of Darkside coins, too!) And I did complete my last Darkside project- the Irish predecimal set. (And of course the 1901 Victorian type set continues along).

These'll hold my interest longer than a lot of things. Wrapped up in Roman coins are most of the reasons I started collecting thirty years ago.

CIVITAS

I've done my best to rate your list with the scale you provided. I am assuming a few things here. 1. You don't have a specific metal/denomination in mind for each emperor and that you are looking for the most affordable/available. 2. Your desire for a decent portrait also means an overall presentable coin and not a corroded lump with a decent portrait. (I.E. a coin with About Fine detail and nice surfaces is more acceptable than a VF coin with really bad patina/surfaces.) 3. The coin is an imperial issue. 4. Uncollectible defined as "unaffordable for collectors of normal/average means."

Augustus, 31 BC-41 AD - 2
Tiberius, 14-37 AD - 3
Gaius (Caligula), 37-41 - 3
Claudius, 41-54 - 2
Nero, 54-68 - 3
Galba, 68-69 - 3
Otho, 69 - 3/4
Vitellius, 69 - 2/3
Vespasian, 69-79 - 1/2
Titus, 79-81 - 1/2
Domitian, 81-96 - 1
Nerva 96-98 - 2
Trajan, 98-117 - 1/2
Hadrian, 117-138 - 1/2
Antoninus Pius, 138-161 - 1
Marcus Aurelius, 161-180, and Lucius Verus, 161-169 - 1/2
Commodus 180-192 - 1/2
Pertinax, 193 - 3/4
Didius Julianus, 193 - 3/4
Septimius Severus, 193-211 - 1
Pescennius Niger, 193-195 - 4
Clodius Albinus, 195-197 - 2/3
Caracalla, 211-217, and Geta, 211 - 1/2
Macrinus, 217-218 - 2/3
Elagabalus, 218-222 - 1
Severus Alexander, 222-235 - 1
Maximinus I, 235-238 - 2
Gordian I, 238, and Gordian II, 238 - 5
Balbinus, 238, and Pupienus, 238 - 3/4
Gordian III, 238-244 - 1
Philip I, 244-249 - 1
Trajanus Decius, 249-251 - 1
Trebonianus Gallus, 251-253 - 1
Aemilian, 253 - 3/4
Valerian, 253-260, and Gallienus, 253-268 - 1
Postumus, 260-268 - 1
Claudius II Gothicus, 268-270 - 1
Quintillus, 270 - 1/2
Aurelian, 270-275 - 1
Tacitus, 275-276 - 1
Florian, 276 - 2
Probus, 276-282 - 1
Carus, 282-283 - 1
Carinus, 283-285, and Numerian, 283-284 - 1/2
Diocletian, 284-305, and Maximian, 286-305 and 307-308 - 1
Carausius, 286/7-293 - 3
Constantius I Chlorus, 305-306, and Galerius, 305-311 - 1
Severus II, 306-307 - 2
Maxentius, 306-312 - 1
Constantine I the Great, 306-337, and Licinius, 308-324 - 1
Maximinus II Daia, 310-313 - 1/2
Constanine II, 337-340, and Constantius II, 337-361, and Constans I, 337-350 - 1
Magnentius, 350-353 - 1/2
Julian the Apostate, 361-363 - 1
Jovian, 363-364 - 1
Valentinian I, 364-375, and Valens, 364-378 (East) - 1
Gratian, 367-383, and Valentinian II, 375-392, and Theodosius I the Great, 379-395 (East, then whole empire) - 1
Magnus Maximus, 383-388 - 2
Arcadius, 395-408 (East), and Honorius, 395-423 - 1
Constantine III, 407-411 - 4
Theodosius II, 408-450 (East) - 1
Constantius III, 421 - 4/5
Johannes, 423-425 - 3
Valentinian III, 425-455 - 1/2
Marcian, 450-457 (East) - 1/2
Petronius Maximus, 455 - 5
Avitus, 455-456 - 4/5
Leo I the Great, 457-474 (East) - 1/2
Majorian, 457-461 - 2/3
Libius Severus, 461-465 - 3/4
Anthemius, 467-472 - 4
Olybrius, 472 - 5/6
Glycerius, 473-474 - 5/6
Julius Nepos, 474-475 and 477(?)-480 - 4/5
Zeno, 474-475 and 476-491 (East) - 2
Basiliscus, 475-476 (East) - 3/4
Romulus Augustulus, 475-476 - 5/6

Rickc300

CIVITAS!

Thank you! That is exactly (almost) what I was looking for when I snuck in on this thread! I copied your post, printed it and have been adding notes based on the affordability and availability of these coins and will make a list of my own (for price and availability), Having just finished a number of hours Google searching on what you listed, you have nailed it for me! You are indeed a vast resource of knowledge on these coins and someday, I hope to be half as knowledgeable. Until then I will just bug you (and others) with inane questions that you probably know the answers to without even cracking a book. A monster has been created!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was humiliated a number of years ago when I proudly showed off a Denarius at a local coin club that I had attributed myself. An old timer told me to go back home and check again because I obviously didn't know shi* from shinola (he was right, and he nailed it down exactly from memory)... So much for my effort and trying! If I had been younger, I would probably just forgotten the entire episode. Being an experienced collector in my field (I try to help other collectors identify and try to explain what and how to identify them if they are interested {German states}). That episode still eats at me and I don't ever want to be ridiculed for not knowing or not even having the knowledge to properly identify a coin again. I thought I had done a good job of researching that particular coin and I was sure of the attribution. I was so disgusted that I gave that coin away to a YN the following month after CORRECTLY identifying it (she was thrilled). Since then I have looked at, but never really thought about buying another until the last couple of months reading your posts and others with some really great photos. These coins and the history attached to them still intrigue and excite me, while I will probably never ever be able to look at any one coin and instantly identify it, I have decided I am going to join Lordmarcovan and attempt a portrait series and maybe learn a little something along the way and make some new friends as well.
Thanks for your well thought out post (and if you did that from memory, I am never going learn let alone remember half of what you know)!
Happy hunting...
Rick

CIVITAS

No problem. I hope it helps. It was mostly from memory until I got to the late period. We don't handle too much of that kind of material, so I kept asking myself "Is that the guy who sells for $500.00 or the guy who sells for $50,000?" Thank the gods for books and the internet.

The old timer sounds like a jerk. Don't let him bug you. There's all types in this hobby. Many people are willing to share their knowledge, and a few are willing to hang it over your head like some kind of status symbol. Fortunately, the latter are a minority.

DesertRat

Thanks Josh!

WillieBoyd2

CIVITAS's rarity list is excellent!

None that I have would rate more than "2" on his list.

Collecting a few Roman coins has led me to read up on some of the history.

Numismatic:
Mattingly, Harold - Roman Coins (1964)
Vagi, David L. - Coinage and History of the Roman Empire (1999)

General:
Durant, Will - Caesar and Christ (1944)
Birley, A. R. - The African Emperor: Septimius Severus (1988)
Lepper, F.A. - Trajan's Parthian War (1948-1979)
Bennett, Julian - Trajan Optimus Princeps (1997)
Vasiliev, Alexander - History of the Byzantine Empire (1952)

"The African Emperor" is an excellent book.
"Trajan's Parthian War" shows how coins were used to date certain historical events.

lordmarcovan

Josh- thank you so much for taking the time to do that scarcity rating. As it happens, I just bought a CD database off eBay that I think was worth the twenty bucks or whatever it was I paid. It has AE Rarity and AR Rarity scales for most everybody, with ratings from 1 to 9. I might copy n' paste some of it later.

I see I made some typos when I transcribed that list from the Grant book. Oh, well.

How do you think I did on this Domitian Denarius, for 69 bucks after shipping? Minerva brandishing javelin, gVF. Herakles Numismatics, out of North Carolina. Being a former North Carolinian myself, I have met Perry Siegel at past shows. I bought a Liteside coin from him once, and he did right by me. He apparently has some sweet looking Roman coins, many of which are out of my current reach, but they give me something to aspire to. Of course, I plan to do some Civitas shopping, too, when the time is right.


link


This Hadrian with the toning and Salus feeding a snake really spoke to me. But I have to sell some stuff before I can buy it:

oreville

Hey!

Checking in on our Emperor ZENO!!! Lordmarcovan's coin came from the Eliasberg collection!!

johnsim03

Oh, wow, look what I missed when I was away for a few hours...

What a super thread.

And, what a great list, Josh. Thanks to everyone for this thread...

John

seemyauction

<< <i>Oh, wow, look what I missed when I was away for a few hours...

What a super thread.

And, what a great list, Josh. Thanks to everyone for this thread...

John >>




I have to agree, I've been over this post several times, seems like I pick something new up each time.

Thanks....