Home Sports Talk

The value of a #3 or #4 hitter taking a walk...is it a bad thing?

You hear it all the time...it is his job to drive in runs. Yes, it is the job of a hitter to make runs without a doubt. Many people are under the impression that middle of the order hitters taking walks is bad for the team, and that passing the buck is not a good idea. What exactly is better for the team?

Your number three man comes up with nobody out and a man on second base...AND HE WALKS! Is that hurting the team's chances at scoring runs? Is it passing the buck to the next guy? Passing the buck to the next guy ain't a bad idea, as he is most likely nearly as good a hitter, or extremely competant. But lets look at what happened in MLB from 1999-2002.

With a man on second base and nobody out, the average team went on to score 1.1 runs in that inning. What if the guy now walks and passes the buck, is that hurting their chance at scoring more runs. Is passing the buck bad?

If that guy walks, it is now 1st & 2nd with nobody out. In that situation the average team went on to score 1.57 runs in that inning. What he did was increase his team's run expectancy by a half a run...hardly bad for the team.

The first thing people will say is that not all lineups are equal. True. The better the hitter who is up with first and second the greater the chance at those runs scoring. These figures represent the AVERAGE hitter. When measuring a player, you want to measure him, and not his lineup's ability, so that really shouldn't even be a bother in individual player comparisons. If a guy had an AWFUL hitter behind him, he will be forced to swing at some very borderline pitches if he was bent on swinging...thus rendering him no longer the hitter he would be anyway. Taking the walk would then be an even smarter play if the hitter behind you is bad. These figures above count all the situations where awful hitters are in, so it is already incorporated.

But did you know that even if the pitcher is the following batter in that situation that the run expectancy will still increase with a guy taking a walk to make it first and second?

How about the flipside? What if you make an out in that situation?

Run expectancy with runner on Second Nobody out == 1.1 runs.
Run expectancy with runner on Second and ONE out= .72 runs.
Run expectancy with runner on Second and TWO out= .34 runs.
Run expectancy with runner on Second and THREE out = zero runs image

This type of information is one of the components in situational batter runs.

Comments

  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 30,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well if you take last years Sox lineup, Ortiz walking then Trot Nixon coming up to bat is not ussually a good thing, especially more of a chance for a DP but in most cases I would not mind the guy walking. This happens all the time, Bonds, Pujols being intentionaly walked, Im sure Skin you could make refferance to that and agree one way or another if it was a good thing or not.
  • A walk is as good as a hit
  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 30,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    We would still rather have a hit than a walk though
  • Yes a hit is better than a walk, but just as good if that is the alternative
  • MorgothMorgoth Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭
    A runner can't go 1st to 3rd on a walk.
    Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
  • A runner cant score if he makes an out
  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 30,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This would not be the sports talk forum if it wasnt for this type of banter image
  • Perk - You're exactly right and the reasons sports radio/forums are great. So many different ways to see the same thing.
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    A walk is hardly ever a bad thing, however a walk to the number 8 batter to get to the pitcher is about the only bad thing i can think of and it usually would be intentional. With that said I want my 3 and 4 hitters to hit not walk but i do not want them swing at bad pitches either.

    Steve
    Good for you.
  • MeteoriteGuyMeteoriteGuy Posts: 7,140 ✭✭
    "With a man on second base and nobody out, the average team went on to score 1.1 runs in that inning. What if the guy now walks and passes the buck, is that hurting their chance at scoring more runs. Is passing the buck bad?"

    The walk would be a good thing.

    In the case noted, a sacrificed bunt would be good as well.


    Mark
    Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards.
    Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
  • markj111markj111 Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭


    << <i>"With a man on second base and nobody out, the average team went on to score 1.1 runs in that inning. What if the guy now walks and passes the buck, is that hurting their chance at scoring more runs. Is passing the buck bad?"

    The walk would be a good thing.

    In the case noted, a sacrificed bunt would be good as well.



    Not to Earl Weaver (or me).
  • MorgothMorgoth Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭
    I think of Frank Thomas as a good example of when walking can be extreme. He got alot of criticisim for walking with runners on in his Whitesox days. I think if the pitcher is nibbling and trying to make you swing at bad pitches then you should walk but I have seen Frank take pitches that you could of at least hit to the outfield for a sacrifice fly and he would lay off. I read were he said that he can't change his approach based on the situation or it would mess him up. I think you should change your approach to win games.
    Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
  • dallasactuarydallasactuary Posts: 4,337 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I think of Frank Thomas as a good example of when walking can be extreme. He got alot of criticisim for walking with runners on in his Whitesox days. I think if the pitcher is nibbling and trying to make you swing at bad pitches then you should walk but I have seen Frank take pitches that you could of at least hit to the outfield for a sacrifice fly and he would lay off. I read were he said that he can't change his approach based on the situation or it would mess him up. I think you should change your approach to win games. >>


    Maybe if his Aunt Edna was coming up next Thomas should have swung at borderline pitches. But with a major league cleanup hitter coming up next? Taking a sure walk is the way to go.

    Bill James did a rather complex analysis of the value of a walk. One of his findings was that if the opposition had walked Babe Ruth every time he came up that the Yankees would have scored even more runs; the walk is easily the most undervalued event in baseball - as this thread demonstrates.
    This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
  • MorgothMorgoth Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭
    That is still just in theory they would score more runs, the math doesn't always work out when humans are involved.
    Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
Sign In or Register to comment.