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Question about 70's-80's unopened wax packs
jamesryanbell
Posts: 1,099 ✭✭✭
(Please assume throughout the questions that I'm talking about NON-GRADED packs.)
1) Is there a way people can know what cards are in unopened wax packs or cello packs without opening them? As a kid, I thought someone told me that if you looked at early 80's vending boxes, you could tell what was in cello packs, etc. The cards were all packed in the same order as the vending boxes. So basically, you just write down a list of the 14-15 players BEFORE the desired card (in the vending box), and go looking for cello packs of that player. As far as wax packs go, if you could see the player's name on the back, you just look at a pre-made list of players AFTER the desired card in the vending box, and count backwards. Hope that made sense. Is this true?? The reason I ask is because I'd really like to get into collecting rare wax packs/cello packs/rack packs, but I want to make sure that there isn't some "everybody-knows-not-to-buy-those" type of thing amongst the true collectors. haha.
2) I'm interested in buying some of those 70's wax packs and rack packs for sale on eBay that AREN'T professionally graded. If they come from reputable dealers, is there any way the packs could've been opened and resealed? Does "steaming" actually work? I've heard horror stories about people buying older packs with the intention of opening them and somehow finding out they've ben steamed open and re-sealed...but I never knew if they were true. ??
3) What other common dangers do I need to lookout for?
Thanks a ton for your time and input. I sincerely appreciate it.
-- Ryan
1) Is there a way people can know what cards are in unopened wax packs or cello packs without opening them? As a kid, I thought someone told me that if you looked at early 80's vending boxes, you could tell what was in cello packs, etc. The cards were all packed in the same order as the vending boxes. So basically, you just write down a list of the 14-15 players BEFORE the desired card (in the vending box), and go looking for cello packs of that player. As far as wax packs go, if you could see the player's name on the back, you just look at a pre-made list of players AFTER the desired card in the vending box, and count backwards. Hope that made sense. Is this true?? The reason I ask is because I'd really like to get into collecting rare wax packs/cello packs/rack packs, but I want to make sure that there isn't some "everybody-knows-not-to-buy-those" type of thing amongst the true collectors. haha.
2) I'm interested in buying some of those 70's wax packs and rack packs for sale on eBay that AREN'T professionally graded. If they come from reputable dealers, is there any way the packs could've been opened and resealed? Does "steaming" actually work? I've heard horror stories about people buying older packs with the intention of opening them and somehow finding out they've ben steamed open and re-sealed...but I never knew if they were true. ??
3) What other common dangers do I need to lookout for?
Thanks a ton for your time and input. I sincerely appreciate it.
-- Ryan
-- Ryan Bell
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Answer: yes, this was especially true with fleer cellos and rack packs of the 80's & 90's, example if billy bob was on top of say an 85 fleer cello 4 cards down would be Roger Clemens and vise versa if joe blow was on the back 6 cards up would be Don Mattingly, 1986 fleer basketball packs are always scary as you could almost always see who the sticker was on the back of the pack and if the cards were turned the right way you could see who was on top through the front of the pack example if Marques Johnson was on the front chances are Michael Jordan is about 4 to 6 cards down. With an 86 Fleer basketball box you should always get at least 3 jordan regular cards and 3 Jordan Stickers and on a lucky box usually 1 out 4 boxes would have 4 Jordan Rookies and of course 3 jordan stickers. On the vending boxes of Topps I have heard that there is squencie. Never paid that much attention. When I had my store always kept the racks and cellos behind the counter and the customers took luck of the draw as I kept the boxes high enough on the shelf so they could not see who was on top of the cello and rack packs .
2) I'm interested in buying some of those 70's wax packs and rack packs for sale on eBay that AREN'T professionally graded. If they come from reputable dealers, is there any way the packs could've been opened and resealed? Does "steaming" actually work? I've heard horror stories about people buying older packs with the intention of opening them and somehow finding out they've ben steamed open and re-sealed...but I never knew if they were true. ??
Yes wax packs can be opened and resealed , when ever I was buying unopened wax , I would look at the corners of the pack to make sure crisp fresh folds on the corners and no tale tell signs of breakage of seams . On the back of the pack look for the wax lines crossing the paper seal match up, also if you have a 10x loop look at the wax lines and see if there is any dust in the wax if there is dust chances 99 % that the pack has not been tamped with, always dust at the factory. also on the wax packs look for the roller marks which should be there. On steaming packs I have no clue, I am sure it has probally been done. I do know that even in the late 80's and 90's and probally even now that the so-called tamper proof foil (upper deck packs) that a good pair of scissors and a crimping machine, You could take all the stars and replace them with commons and reseal the foill pack, the tell tale sign there is the packs are now alot tighter and Smaller and the crimp might be different .
3) What other common dangers do I need to lookout for?
There is always crooks out there some of are real pros at it. Have seen 1991 stadium club baseball opened and resealed by the case , bought one myself 12 box case for 4600 not 1 star card of course I only opened 1 box and that is all I needed to make me want to throw up, another dealer at the same show also bought a case from the same lowlife that I did. Happy ending is that 2 weeks later we caught them at another show (100 miles away) this time selling 91 stadium club hockey cases, called the police and got are money back and some satisfaction. Even the most knowledgeable dealers/collectors have been screwed at least 1 time (probally more than once I know I was). Always new tricks and old tricks (just improved) that the crooks do. Also forgot about what they call thumbing the rack packs where you get to see every card without even opening the pack.
Your best bet is to stick with Reputable dealers/collectors and if buying off of Ebay definitely check there feedback and read any negitive feedback that they have recieved. But also remember that even a full box of say 1978 topps 36 packs will not always have say an Eddie Murray Rc ect, ect, beacause it is 726 card set and there is only 432 cards in the box and doubles & triples of certain players even out of 1 box. The 80's fleer boxes now there was hardly any doubles out of those due to the squencing of cards but even out of an say an 84,85,86 fleer box 660 card set only 540 cards in a box. you should get a fair amount of stars just not all of them. If you buy alot of unopened packs/boxes chances are sooner or later you will get burnt,
just hope it is not a real expensive lesson/education . Good Luck on your collecting and hope my descriptions are not to vague or confusing. Alot of what I learned was from paying for it an expensive education and dealing in unopened material for
15 years . Don't be discouraged there are alot of good and reputable Dealers and Collectors out there. (More good than Bad)
Looking forward to more comments.
-- Ryan
<< <i>I've bought many raw and graded packs over the past year and most have been searched and resealed - even some that were graded by GAI. I was educated to the sequencing of 1970's Topps cards by another forum member and there is a pattern to wax, cello and rack packs - once you know the pattern, it's easy ot see when you've been screwed. Of course, that makes it easy to know what cards are "hidden" inside true cello and rack packs too. >>
Where can I find info on the patterns?
<< <i>...so no one knows about the patterns for certain years? hmm.... >>
People do know--- but there's zero percentage in sharing that information.
<< <i>
People do know--- but there's zero percentage in sharing that information. >>
Just wanted to help protect myself from getting scammed. It could be done privately on PM. That sucks.
I'm honestly shocked that no one's posted it on a FAQ somewhere on the web.
They earned it and paid for it in one way or another. Develop relationships with the right people and they can/will help you. This is a very friendly and helpful bunch of people here!
<< <i>Someone else told me the patterns, so I don't feel it's my place to give away the results of his labor. Sorry. >>
But you got them without the labor, right?
<< <i>Ryan I think people spent a lot of time and money learning the patterns, and they have a significant advantage over collectors like you and I. It's the same as people who spend time tracking what cards sell for over time. I can't expect them to tell me in a public forum all the information they worked for.
They earned it and paid for it in one way or another. Develop relationships with the right people and they can/will help you. This is a very friendly and helpful bunch of people here! >>
I've helped people via PMs lots of times. Another hobby of mine is collecting rare hot sauces (Blair's...which can get anywhere from $100-$10,000...yes I'm serious....depending on the bottles), and I've helped tons of people out with various things to look out for, etc). Of course I didn't just post it all over the place (although I've told LOTS of people via PMs and emails), but if someone else can learn from what I've personally had to pay for the hard way, then so be it! Being helpful is part of the fun. I was just looking for someone to help me out. That's all.
<< <i>
<< <i>Ryan I think people spent a lot of time and money learning the patterns, and they have a significant advantage over collectors like you and I. It's the same as people who spend time tracking what cards sell for over time. I can't expect them to tell me in a public forum all the information they worked for.
They earned it and paid for it in one way or another. Develop relationships with the right people and they can/will help you. This is a very friendly and helpful bunch of people here! >>
I've helped people via PMs lots of times. Another hobby of mine is collecting rare hot sauces (Blair's...which can get anywhere from $100-$10,000...yes I'm serious....depending on the bottles), and I've helped tons of people out with various things to look out for, etc). Of course I didn't just post it all over the place (although I've told LOTS of people via PMs and emails), but if someone else can learn from what I've personally had to pay for the hard way, then so be it! Being helpful is part of the fun. I was just looking for someone to help me out. That's all.
Ryan, I wouldn't be surprised if someone contacted you through PM. Of course, you've only been around for a month with 37 posts so people might be more inclined to help you later once you've established that you're not just flying to grab this info and bolting. Also, while I'm sure your intentions are good you can understand how this information could be used for the purposes of evil.
Bad, bad evil.
Arthur
<< <i>...so no one knows about the patterns for certain years? hmm.... >>
I don't think to many people have patterns from the 60's 70's & 80's. I am sure someone out there might, myself the oldest wax I have ever opened was 1968 topps and that was 1 pack and when I was opening packs/boxes, writing patterns down never crossed my mind. If you are looking to buy older raw 70's & 80's wax without fear of being ripped off go with BBCE, Mark Murphy ,Dave & Adams cards and ect. ect, those 3 are the only ones that come to mind right now but there are plenty more honest dealers out there. Opening older wax packs, racks & cellos is like gambling/lottery even if you get the player or players that you are shooting for the centering could be 90/10 lr or tb or completely miscut or like alot of 82 topps what they called wrong backs. Remember opening alot of 78 topps baseball and 1 box in particular getting 4 sharp cornered cards and 90/10/ 80/20 centering throughout the whole box and this was when boxes were only like 225 a box, still made me sick. I could have bought 2 complete 78 topps sets built from vending for 125-150 each.One Pattern I do remember from 85 Fleer cellos was that if Mike Davis was on top you would get an Eric Davis RC only remember this because of last names being the same and Eric being a hot card at that time.
<< <i>[
Ryan, I wouldn't be surprised if someone contacted you through PM. Of course, you've only been around for a month with 37 posts so people might be more inclined to help you later once you've established that you're not just flying to grab this info and bolting. Also, while I'm sure your intentions are good you can understand how this information could be used for the purposes of evil.
Bad, bad evil.
Arthur >>
Yeah I understand. Not that I can prove anything over the internet, but I've been collecting since I was 8 years old, and actually value honesty in the hobby (which seems like something that's getting rarer and rarer). I just wanted a way to make sure someone wasn't "unloading" boxes that I was going to buy.
I took note of those names in the post above this one too. Maybe that'll help some. Honest dealers these days are hard to come by it seems.
<< <i>I don't think to many people have patterns from the 60's 70's & 80's. >>
A few years ago, I started opening a lot of 1979 Racks. I took the time to document every card that came from the packs. I can nail Ozzie Smith's almost every time when a rack pack hits ebay. Although, the sequence is the same about 90% of the time, once in a while it will be messed up. Then I've overpaid for a rack pack with no Ozzie, so I really don't pay attention anymore. Also, even $25 for an almost always off center Ozzie Smith really isn't that good of a deal anyways.
I guarantee that there are many people who know this info because when I find one on ebay that most likely has the Ozzie, the bids seem to go unusually high.
There are a TON of people who reseal out there. You seem like a nice guy, but blindly providing the sort of info you're looking for can be, as Arthur mentioned a few posts ago, used for bad bad evil.
I actually think we are a bit too forthcoming with some of our info (when you look back at our group packs rips and see details of each pack posted). There are just a ton of scammers out there. It's ashame.
-t
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
<< <i>James,
There are a TON of people who reseal out there. You seem like a nice guy, but blindly providing the sort of info you're looking for can be, as Arthur mentioned a few posts ago, used for bad bad evil.
I actually think we are a bit too forthcoming with some of our info (when you look back at our group packs rips and see details of each pack posted). There are just a ton of scammers out there. It's ashame.
-t >>
Probably a dumb question, but are GAI graded packs immune from this (i.e. if a pack has been opened, do they almost always catch it)?
<< <i>Probably a dumb question, but are GAI graded packs immune from this (i.e. if a pack has been opened, do they almost always catch it)? >>
No.
Arthur
<< <i>
<< <i>Probably a dumb question, but are GAI graded packs immune from this (i.e. if a pack has been opened, do they almost always catch it)? >>
No.
Arthur >>
So there's no use to considering GAI graded packs more valuable then, right?
Does PSA grade packs? Do you think they'll catch the fake ones?
Dave and Adams--OK
Murphy--never again. He of the Christmas Rack Pack scam a few years back, and more recently, the '74 headless racks. Oh yeah, and all those GAI-10 '86 Fleer Baseketball wax packs. No thanks.