Opinions regarding GAI vs. PSA/SGC

danp306

At first I responded to the 52 Mantle GAI 7 topic, but i decided to start a separate thread
regarding GAI Vs. PSA.

First here's an update to my recent "quest" to switch all my cards to PSA (1920 - present) and SGC (pre 1920):

I broke out my 51 Mantle SGC 70 (5.5) last week and sent it to PSA. I was hoping for PSA6 so I didn't want to crossover.
I received a PSA 5, which I guess is what this card deserved.

I also just broke out several other GAI/SGC cards recently and sent them to PSA. I'll let you all know when I get the grades.

I was thinking about some of the responses from other members regarding GAI crossover to PSA. Originally I thought that PSA did have a bias against GAI graded cards. However, I honestly believe GAI grades easier than SGC and PSA. This is obviously important to find
out when buying graded cards. I know the GAI cards I have sold recently did not receive PSA prices. As I said in my repsonse to the 52 Mantle GAI 7, I am no grading expert. This is just what I feel after the last four weeks of getting rid of all my GAI and BGS graded cards.

Also, I sent 5 other GAI graded cards to SGC. One was not holdered because it was "rebacked" (GAI graded it "AUTH"). One came back with the same grade. The other 3 all came back 1/2 grade lower.

This is just some more of my recent experiences. I wonder how everyone else feels? I am wrong regarding GAI grading?
Do you guys think that GAI is grading easier to try to get more business? If so, I think this strategy will backfire in the long run.

From what I have learned from my brief collecting experience, I will not pay equivalent PSA grade prices for GAI cards ever again. As I said earlier, I don't really think I will buy a GAI graded card again (unless the price is 1-2 grades lower than an equal PSA grade).

Thoughts?

Thanks.

Dan

ElectricPrune

I just bought a GAI 8 card site unseen off Beckett's site. It was the last of an isolated group of 50 I was upgrading for a '68 set. I have already resubmitted it to PSA. I have a feeling the best it will get is 8oc. If GAI has made a decesion to do it, it won't take long for buyers to figure it out, the hard way.

XanaduNow

A GAI card's price would have to be more than 2 grades lower the PSA/SGC equivalent for me to even think about buying it based on the fact that it might not even get placed into a PSA/SGC holder. But as a general rule of thumb I would not buy a GAI slab.

Arthur

aro13

For whatever reason the market for GAI cards is far less than PSA or SGC. In most major auctions GAI cards sell for a similar price as one lower PSA grade. If you are good at examining cards in their holders you would probably be able to get some nice buys in GAI holders.

cardbender

I've had some trouble getting good $$$ on GAI slabbed cards.
I do think there are some good buys to be found on GAI cards.
Of course you would have to make your money on them by crossing them over to PSA or SGC holders.

I don't have a problem with most GAI slabs, they just don't seem to sell for as much money in the same graded PSA slab.

If you're not going to be selling your cards anytime soon, any one of the big three grading companies are fine to use if you just want the cards protected and assured they're not trimmed/altered.

Certain years of commons graded by GAI sell for peanuts due to the dominance of the PSA set registry. So there are good buys to be found in those areas.

elmjack44

Again, it's freakin' ridiculous that the same card will get different grades by different companies. Why grade anything???!!! Now, it doesn't matter what shape a card is truly in, it matters what service grades it???? That's the height of BS!!

theczar

Again, it's freakin' ridiculous that the same card will get different grades by different companies. Why grade anything???!!! Now, it doesn't matter what shape a card is truly in, it matters what service grades it???? That's the height of BS!!

Actually that is not the height of BS.

The height of BS would be Hilary as President, Rosie spewing her garbage about the collapse to the Twin Towers or another stupid Will Ferrel movie.

At a lesser level in BS height is the card collecting world. The height of this area would be buying a graded card and then finding out that is was trimmed, restored or conterfeit. So Mr. Elmjack 44 just as women will tell you that size matters, card collectors will tell that the grading company matters as well.

koby

PSA sells for more than GAI and SGC for the majority of cards. For modern cards, raw cards might sell for more than GAI and SGC.

onlyanumber

My rule of thumb is not to look at any GAI cards unless they are graded 9 or better. Then when I get my GAI 9's I crack em out and submit them to PSA. I've never had a GAI 9 come back less than a PSA 9.

RonBurgundy

I don't know that GAI grades "easier" than PSA, but they do grade differently. After talking with dealers and learning from trial and error, I've learned what defects GAI will hammer and which ones PSA hammers. I don't know all of them of course, but if you know it really helps when looking at a GAI graded card and wondering whether it will bump. My own personal experience has been GAI has actually been harder on my cards about half the time......I have had 6.5's bump to 7's, 7.5's to 8's, and so on. Of course, that will not always be the case. On the other hand, I have seen cards in GAI 9 holders that had no business being there.

WRT to market value, it will be years, if ever, before a competitor to PSA approaches their realized prices. Whether it's GAI, SGC, Beckett, etc. on average PSA will dominate the market for years to come. The question is whether the others can carve out a niche to survive. My own personal opinion is that GAI and SGC should merge, concentrate on the ends of the market (pre-war and modern), try to drive Beckett out of business (which is very possible I think), and go from there. Crazy idea, I know.



Ron

2dueces

<< <i>A GAI card's price would have to be more than 2 grades lower the PSA/SGC equivalent for me to even think about buying it based on the fact that it might not even get placed into a PSA/SGC holder. But as a general rule of thumb I would not buy a GAI slab.

Arthur >>



Arthur, you and I are on the same page. I will not even look at a GAI auction any longer. I did but some earlier GAI cards when Baker was grading, but I believe that some GAI cards will not cross to either SGC or PSA. Knowing this I will not buy another GAI card.

Joe

aro13

Ron - I think you are missing the point about GAI. For whatever reason, and Arthur and Joe are good examples, GAI has lost credibility in the marketplace. Check Mastro prices. Check ebay. Many people feel, right or wrong, that a great number of GAI cards currently in holders are there because they will not cross to PSA or SGC.

cardbender

I hope GAI doesn't turn into CSA where they grade anything.

PSA is great but also I think it's better to have some grading choices and competition, otherwise grading fee's in the future could escalate when there's no other grading options to choose from. Competition helps keep grading fee's reasonable.

RonBurgundy

"Ron - I think you are missing the point about GAI. For whatever reason, and Arthur and Joe are good examples, GAI has lost credibility in the marketplace. Check Mastro prices. Check ebay. Many people feel, right or wrong, that a great number of GAI cards currently in holders are there because they will not cross to PSA or SGC."

I disagree. I have no idea whether or not GAI has lost credibility in the marketplace, but I do know that I will look at cards in their holders because there is occasionally value to be had. Same with SGC. And actually, I think you are arguing against yourself.....if GAI has no credibility anymore, why would anyone spend money to get a card into their holders? Assuming you are right, spending additional money for GAI to holder a card simply because PSA or SGC won't seems foolish to me.

1420sports

if GAI has no credibility anymore, why would anyone spend money to get a card into their holders?

Are collectors still using them? From the reports I have heard, the GAI submissions are way down. I have also heard that authentication is the direction they are heading, as that area of their business is widely accepted.

Assuming you are right, spending additional money for GAI to holder a card simply because PSA or SGC won't seems foolish to me.

Not really. Again, I am going basing this on reports that GAI grading submissions are down. If PSA and SGC (the kingpins) are rejecting cards, GAI may be the next logical choice. Slabbed cards are the now and later of the hobby.

For the record, and this has been documented, I was a big fan of GAI before they even started. I was somewhat of a newbie (still am in many aspects of this hobby), and very much rooted for them. After much delay on this and that, and most importantly, after several collectors started to see what type of grading was being done, I no longer considered them.

As RonBurgundy stated, there are many cards in GAI slabs that are a value. But which ones? One medium size card dealer of both PSA and SGC told me that he made a TON of money in the early stages of GAI. That market came and went, and he now considers that many cards that still reside in GAI holders were unsuccessful crosses to PSA and SGC. I assume that these were attempted inside the holder, so it may be innaccurate to say the card was overgraded.

Morgoth

One thing GAI will not be as hard on is the presence of wrinkles. They have graded alot of 55 Bowmans (baseball) with wrinkles. I had a GAI 8.5 that had 3 visible wrinkles. They stated to me that since they were paper wrinkles they considered them part of the original process and not a defect. If the wrinkle is visible on the front and back then it is considered a crease and it is hammered.

aro13

Ron - I will give you some examples from the last Masto auction. These examples are plentiful and are happening more and more frequently. Why would a buyer not take the chance on the GAI cards? These cards are not cards bought for the registry. Why is GAI selling so poorly? SGC sells on par for this type of material with PSA. Why not GAI? Plus, seeing the PSA cards sold for more, why not try to crossover the cards to PSA - the consignor of the Ruth would have made $12,000 by crossing a GAI 8.5 to a PSA 8. The Mays and Mantle cards were graded higher and still sold for less.

1915 Cracker Jack Napoleon Lajoie
PSA 8 $8012
GAI 8.5 $3691

1933 Sport Kings Babe Ruth
PSA 8 $27 584
GAI 8.5 $15 569

1959 Topps Willie Mays
GAI 9.5 $1420
PSA 9 $1837

1968 Topps Mickey Mantle
GAI 9.5 $1253
PSA 9 $1517

2dueces

I think you are missing the point. It's not that PSA or SGC doesn't grade a particular issue, but cards that have came back ungraded from these 2 companies end up in GAI flips. Can I make myself any more clear without spelling it out? A majority of collectors will not take the chance and buy a card in a GAI flip, period.

XanaduNow

Snip, snip. Paste, paste. Magic marker, magic marker.

Arthur

PS. If I'm spending that type of money on a card I want the WHOLE card.

RonBurgundy

"A majority of collectors will not take the chance and buy a card in a GAI flip, period."

Have you done a scientific poll on that? If so, I hope you are correct and I am glad you are staying away from cards in GAI holders. It just further opens the door for others to get a card at a good value. Contrary what some would have you believe, not every card in a GAI holder is overgraded or trimmed. If you limit what you are willing to pay for them and review them carefully, you can do just fine, but hey, knock yourself out and stay away.



Ron

Wondo

Sometimes ya gotta go GAI. 1890 Joseph Hall cabinet of Brooklyn Club at spring training in Florida.



GAI 3 - vg. Only company with a big enough holder.

XanaduNow

<< <i>"A majority of collectors will not take the chance and buy a card in a GAI flip, period."

Have you done a scientific poll on that? If so, I hope you are correct and I am glad you are staying away from cards in GAI holders. It just further opens the door for others to get a card at a good value. Contrary what some would have you believe, not every card in a GAI holder is overgraded or trimmed. If you limit what you are willing to pay for them and review them carefully, you can do just fine, but hey, knock yourself out and stay away.



Ron >>



Ron, at least from my standpoint, I'm not trying to imply that EVERY card in a GAI holder is altered or unauthentic ... or even that they are all overgraded. I'm just saying that with all the cards in PSA and SGC holders I wouldn't take the additional risk (because not everything in PSA/SGC is always on the up-and-up either) of purchasing the grading companies equivalent of the middle class. I don't think GAI is trash and would never group them in with the other garage graders but I just feel that, at this point, if it's in a GAI holder there's a reason why it's in a GAI holder.

My $0.02

Arthur

danp306

I guess I can relate this to the software world. Years ago when we were writing software Apple and OS/2 were much better operating systems than Microsoft. However, everyone was buying PC's with Microsoft pre-loaded so of course we used MS (we didn't care which one was better). This was in the late 1980's and you can see how things turned out.

With card collecting, I only care that everyone puts a premium on PSA (and I guess SGC) cards over GAI and the rest. I don't really care if their reasoning is legit. It also seems like most collectors want their cards to end up in either a PSA or SGC holder. So why take a chance on anyone else (unless you good enough to find the few that crossover favorably). I only care that when I go to sell a GAI card (usually because I'm upgrading) it does not come close to getting what I would get for the same graded PSA card.

I realize this thinking works for my style of collecting. The true experts out there can determine which GAI cards will crossover and get some good deals. I'm just not that good at grading (and don't think I ever will be, especially viewing images of cards on EBAY).

Dan

coastrebcoastreb

danp306;
just wanted to update my GAI 7 '52 Topps Mantle that i purchased from Mile High Cards. I received it today and I can truly say that it is alot nicer than in the photos. The blue background and the white borders are excellent. The upper left hand corner has a very, very minor ding but the other 3 front corners and all 4 back corners are excellent. I taked to Brian the owner of Mile High and he said that it had never been sent to PSA. I might send it later. Memory Lane Auctions that is owned by Mile High Cards has numerous GAI graded cards in their current auction. Gai graded or not, this is one beautiful card. Glad to be the proud ownerof it. At $ 24,099 I feel I paid about what a PSA 6 would have sold for. Just wanted to update you now that I have received the card. Thanks for everyone's opinions on the PSA vs GAI graded cards. The e-bay item # is 200092120612 for anyone that would like to view this card. thanks again.

wayne mills

danp306

<< <i>danp306;
just wanted to update my GAI 7 '52 Topps Mantle .....

wayne mills >>



Sounds great Wayne. I think all of us were in agreement that your card is a beauty. Hopefully I can get one someday!!! I'm no where near a grading expert (new to the hobby), which is my problem. As I've mentioned before I'm converting all my cards to PSA post 1929 and SGC pre-1930. For the few GAI cards I've attempted to crossover I've had bad luck. It could just be that I didn't buy high end GAI graded cards (my small number of crossovers was not a large enough sample). Until I get better at determining what PSA will grade, I've decided to stop buying GAI graded cards. However, that doesn't mean that I would turn down a GAI graded card that at worst would grade one grade lower with PSA.

If I had your GAI 7 Mantle I would be estatic right now!! Good Luck.

Dan