Some very interesting grades back from PCGS...DESIGANTION REVIEW UPDATE IN LAST POST

jmj3esq

This one boggles my mind. LeeG had a post the other day about missing the CAM designation on his SMS Kennedy. Well, look at this crap. How this missed a CAM cannot be explained. It also was undergraded. I was expecting a PR68CAM. As Russ has explained PCGS is tight right now for some reason. Am I crazy or what?



On a better note I cracked out a Sesqui commem and sent it in with this order. It was in a PCGS MS63 slab. It upgraded to a PCGS MS64!!! I thought it was a MS64 when I bought it. Paid less than MS63 money too. I guess ya win some and lose some.



Here is a nice mint set toned Roosie. I was praying for a full band desigantion. It was close but not close enough. PCGS graded it MS66. I think its a MS67. Oh well.



I also had 3 Accented hair Kennedys grade PR66. All three I think are undergraded. I got one boddy bag. It was a 1837 reeded edge bust half. something did not look right about it. PCGS says it was cleaned. They are probably right.

Obviosly PCGS still has its Trueview service. They are grading extremely tight right now. If it wasnt for my huge upgrade on the Sesqui I would be pissed. The Franklin is going back in the near future. It will eventualy be in a CAM slab.

This was a regular submission that posted 5 days after receipt!!! They are fast but tight.

Just thought I would share.

ziggy29

<< <i>They are fast but tight. >>

I suspect these two are related.

etexmike

That is a great looking commem. on the upgrade.

Sorry about the grade on the Frankie.

-------------

etexmike

Barndog

nice valuation jump on the Sesqui.

ziggy29

<< <i>nice valuation jump on the Sesqui. >>

True, but isn't this a shame in some sense? Good for the submitter, yes, but not so good for the hobby. It's the same damn coin.

Barndog

<< <i>

<< <i>nice valuation jump on the Sesqui. >>

True, but isn't this a shame in some sense? Good for the submitter, yes, but not so good for the hobby. It's the same damn coin. >>



that's the plastic game in a nutshell.

jmj3esq

that's the plastic game in a nutshell.

I agree.

I didnt start it. I just play it.

bushmaster8

They rooked you on the Frankie for sure! Ridiculous!!

Connecticoin

That's a nice looking Sesqui. Most of them tone in ugly shades of dark brown.

MadMarty

Jcarney

<< <i>

<< <i>nice valuation jump on the Sesqui. >>

True, but isn't this a shame in some sense? Good for the submitter, yes, but not so good for the hobby. It's the same damn coin. >>



If the coin is overgraded now, then yes, it's bad for the hobby. If the coin is now correctly graded, as the OP believes, how can this be bad for the hobby?

claychaser

Are they still doing tru-view???

jmj3esq

Are they still doing tru-view???

Obviosly they are. On the submission form I checked the "other" box and wrote in "Trueview Service". I paid $5 extra for each coin. No questions asked. IT IS AVAILABLE.

Bobk

The Franklin is a cameo. I do not see it lacking anywhere. Bob

jmj3esq

Here is the photo of the bust half that was bagged for cleaning. There is almost no luster. I thought this might be just a sign of circulation. There are no telltale hailines from harsh cleaning. What do you guys think? Also what do you think it would grade?

ziggy29

<< <i>If the coin is overgraded now, then yes, it's bad for the hobby. If the coin is now correctly graded, as the OP believes, how can this be bad for the hobby? >>

Because it points to an overreliance on plastic to value a coin. It's the SAME coin, and suddenly it's worth a LOT more because the dart landed in a different square this time?

I don't blame the OP at all for playing the game. But I think "the game" is trashing the hobby.

<< <i>Here is the photo of the bust half that was bagged for cleaning. There is almost no luster. I thought this might be just a sign of circulation. There are no telltale hailines from harsh cleaning. What do you guys think? Also what do you think it would grade? >>

Looks lightly cleaned to me, but it doesn't look like a bad coin and I've certainly seen worse in everyone's plastic.

DeepCoin

I think it is interesting that virtually everyone will say you need to see a coin before being able to grade it properly and then bashing the grading services for undergraded coins and people agree vehemently based solely upon a photo.

I am not saying the Frankie is not a CAM, but just observing the behavior regarding grading coins via pictures.

jmj3esq

I am not saying the Frankie is not a CAM, but just observing the behavior regarding grading coins via pictures.

I have obviosly seen the coin in hand and graded it PR68CAM. The picture acurately depicts the coin.

Burks

I don't know how you missed the CAM designation on that Franklin. Too bad it still went for a 67. That's a double kick in the junk.

BobaFett72

"As Russ has explained PCGS is tight right now for some reason."

the resubmission game is very lucrative...wink wink.

bushmaster8

<< <i>I think it is interesting that virtually everyone will say you need to see a coin before being able to grade it properly and then bashing the grading services for undergraded coins and people agree vehemently based solely upon a photo. >>



...said the blind man.

lasvegasteddy

sad...truly sad to see that frankie didn't didn't receive cam too and it makes me wonder how i'll make the coins i got when i hop in the pit too.i guess they want more $$$.kinda a share the wealth thing maybe???

TwoSides2aCoin

Presidential Review is one option
Crackout/reSubmit is another.
Acceptance is not an option, it's an attribute

Russ

<< <i>Presidential Review is one option >>



I've had better luck with designation review, and it's cheaper, faster, and has no 30 day time limit.

Russ, NCNE

BlackBeard

I agree, they do seem tight right now. My grades came back and some lincolns I've been submitting and getting 66s on, I just sent 2 that were at least equal and got 65s. (previously 3 of 4 sent hit 66 and I was pickier this time) Most of the other coins seemed a grade lower across the board. I got one body bag for cleaning that didn't appear to be to me, yet a wheat I was nervous would be body bagged for questionable color (cheek looked like it may have been altered/cleaned) zoomed right through at 66 where expected. That one surprised me with the way the others turned out.

keets

i can find no adequate words to describe my impression of what's going on at PCGS right now which won't put my log-on priveliges at risk, so i will just say that to me the Franklin looks like a Cameo, the Sesqui appears to have uncharacteristically nice luster, the toning on the Roosevelt is superb and the Reeded Edge Half-Dollar has an unnatural appearance.

jmj3esq

Thanks Keets. The Sesgui has probably the nicest luster I have ever seen on any coin.

I know what you mean about the Reeded edge. It just dosnt look right. I dont collect or grade these much, so i can fault my own lack of knowledge and bust half grading ability on that one. It will go back in my 7070.

cointagious

<< <i>Am I crazy or what? >>




Maybe you just need to pay twice.

Hmann

I'm getting ready to send my first ever batch of coins in to be graded (about 25 morgans, some peace dollars, and some modern eagles). This thread scares me a little to be honest.

I have been going back and forth on pcgs, or ngc for the grading. I realize this is a pcgs message board, so maybe its not the proper place to ask about the two companies, but help a noob out please.

I know PCGS is the more respected company. If I were choosing between two slabbed coins one in a PCGS holder and one in a NGC holder, all other things being equal, I would grab the PCGS for sure.

All that being said I think I may split up my first order and send half to each company. I'll try my best to have what I believe are similar grades going to each company and see the results.

Or I could submit to NGC first, then send to PCGS for a crossover grade. Can you ask PCGS to not take the coin out of the NGC holder unless its atleast the same grade that PCGS will put on the coin????

I would love some more insight from all of you guys. Has anyone else ever done this?

I hope you all dont mind all my questions.

Thanks

Fairlaneman

The commen is pretty as hell. The roosevelt is graded correctly in my opinion. I will say on the roosevelt that PCGS for some reason does not like that thicker tone that this coin shows. Why ? You got me. The franklin I will not comment on because I do not know squat about Cam and the likes.

As far as PCGS grading tightly I do not see it. My three submissions that have been done in the last few months were just fine. One coin was a little let down but it was a Roosevelt with the very thick tone like the coin shown here.

Also I agree with Deepcoin on the statement he made. People seem to be a little wishy washy when it comes to grading from pictures. One time they will say it can't be done and the next time they grade like pro's from a picture. Oh well.

Ken

BECOKA

I am not sure how tight they are I just had two CC Morgans that I graded MS61 border 62 and they came back MS63 and MS64.

As far as the Franky goes. The reverse looks borderline with a little help from the photo. The obverse is a no brainer CAM. I would send it for a designation review and it will probably be fixed.

jmj3esq

I would send it for a designation review and it will probably be fixed.

Shes going out as soon as she gets back from Newport Beach.

I am not sure how tight they are

I guess I should qualify my statement about PCGS being tight. I have had real good luck on older coins (mostly early commems) but a tough time on modern proof coins. I had a batch of proof and SMS Kennedys recently where I felt all had a legit chance at CAM. According to PCGS none made it. That on top of the grade I received on the Frankie above leads me to beleive they are very tough on mid-modern proofs and the CAM/DCAM designation.

Myqqy

Threads like this one bum me out a little bit.... I think the franklin looks wonderful, and I'm sorry that you will have to pay more for the proper designation..

DHeath

Looks like the Franklin is at least a liner, but pictures that hide the mirrors can make proofs look stronger than they actually are, and my guess is that TrueView tries to make the coin images as nice as possible. If there is ANY frost fade on the bell, or if there is too much frost in the fields, it'll cause a liner to miss. I haven't seen the coin, and it might be Dcam for all I know, and PCGS could have made a mechanical error, but I know close doesn't always get the nod. JMO The coin pictured below didn't get the nod either, even though it's close.

OneCent

I'm scared!

I submitted my first ever batch of coins under Economy level about 3 weeks ago. They will be graded any day....

jmj3esq

DESIGNATION REVIEW UPDATE:

Well, I sent the Franklin back in on a Designation Review. I also sent a PCGS MS67 1967 SMS Kennedy I thought might CAM. I just got the grades and they both were upgraded with the CAM desigantion.

I just wanted everyone to know that the game is still alive and well. Have fun playing

Zoins

<< <i>I just wanted everyone to know that the game is still alive and well. Have fun playing >>

Thanks for playing

DieClash

What does PR67CA mean? The OPs Cert verification?

Edited: Nevermind!

Cladiator

<< <i>the game is still alive and well >>

Yippey!

tmot99

This is a very sad example of what the TPGs have done to the hobby.

Russ

<< <i>I just got the grades and they both were upgraded with the CAM desigantion. >>



Told ya.

Russ, NCNE

Graphix

Just a quick question...

If you disagree with a grade that is assigned to a submission, in this case the Franklin being cameo and you send it in for a Presidential Review (and it turns out you were correct) are you still charged for the Presidential Review?

Russ

<< <i>(and it turns out you were correct) are you still charged for the Presidential Review? >>



Yes.

Russ, NCNE

Graphix

<< <i>

<< <i>(and it turns out you were correct) are you still charged for the Presidential Review? >>



Yes.

Russ, NCNE >>



Are you given any kind of credit or refund from the initial grading that was incorrect?

Russ

<< <i>Are you given any kind of credit or refund from the initial grading that was incorrect? >>



No.

Russ, NCNE

VamGuy

<< <i>Are you given any kind of credit or refund from the initial grading that was incorrect? >>

No grading or designation is ever incorrect when they are based solely on opinion. Opinions vary... and sometimes change.

Graphix

<< <i>

<< <i>Are you given any kind of credit or refund from the initial grading that was incorrect? >>

No grading or designation is ever incorrect when they are based solely on opinion. Opinions vary... and sometimes change. >>




I thought the first line of the guarentee said something to the effect of ... in accordance with PCGS grading standards ... but your saying there are none? Or are you saying it is possible for a coin to turn into a Cameo/Deep cameo coin over time (after it has been holdered)? Again, I am new to the hobby please elaborate.

Russ

<< <i>Or are you saying it is possible for a coin to turn into a Cameo/Deep cameo coin over time (after it has been holdered)? >>



There are cameos and deep cameos that are not cut and dried as to the designation. There is an enormous variance in degree of contrast within each designation. Some are liners that can drop on either side depending on whose opinion is being rendered.

The thing about designation review as he used in this case, (not Presidential review), is that it says to the graders that the submitter thinks they screwed up the first time. This causes them to give the coins a more careful evaluation then basic grading. That's why I like and use designation review.

Russ, NCNE

Graphix

<< <i>

<< <i>Or are you saying it is possible for a coin to turn into a Cameo/Deep cameo coin over time (after it has been holdered)? >>



There are cameos and deep cameos that are not cut and dried as to the designation. There is an enormous variance in degree of contrast within each designation. Some are liners that can drop on either side depending on whose opinion is being rendered.

The thing about designation review as he used in this case, (not Presidential review), is that it says to the graders that the submitter thinks they screwed up the first time. This causes them to give the coins a more careful evaluation then basic grading. That's why I like and use designation review.

Russ, NCNE >>



Gotcha,

Thanks

SkyMan

JMJ3, good going on the Frankie! That was a pretty obvious cameo. As to grade, particularly with proofs (where hairlines are all important), it's very difficult to judge a grade from an image. On the other hand, on that coin it's easy to judge that it is an attractive coin!

DennisH

Designation review is also cheaper than either a regrade or Presidential Review.