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True Rookie Cards?

ClemazClemaz Posts: 1,422
in Trading Cards & Memorabilia Forum
Is there a list or web site where I can find out what baseball cards are the true rookie card? Pre 80's are easy, it's the years when all the mutiple companies started producing cards that I become confused.
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Comments

  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,617 ✭✭✭✭
    Are there any players in particular you want to know about? I'm sure I could help with at least a few.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • ClemazClemaz Posts: 1,422
    Kirby Puckett
    A-Rod
    Derek Jeter
    Jason Bay
    Albert Pujols
    David Wright
    Ryan Howard
    Barry Bonds
    Ichiro
    John Smoltz
    Ivan Rodriguez
    Gregg Maddox
    Frank Thomas
    Vernon Wells
    Mike Piazza
    Curt Schilling
    Jason Giambi
    image
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  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,617 ✭✭✭✭
    There are multiple issues for many of these players, but I only put the most desirable rookie for the ones that I know:

    Kirby Puckett - '84 Fleer Update
    A-Rod - '94 SP
    Derek Jeter - '93 SP
    Jason Bay
    Albert Pujols - He has tons of rookies. His best non auto, jersey rookie is 2001 SP.
    David Wright
    Ryan Howard
    Barry Bonds - '86 Fleer Update
    Ichiro
    John Smoltz - '88 Fleer Update
    Ivan Rodriguez - '91 Ultra Update
    Greg Maddux - '87 Donruss
    Frank Thomas - '90 Leaf
    Vernon Wells
    Mike Piazza - '92 Fleer Update
    Curt Schilling - '89 Donruss
    Jason Giambi - '91 Topps Traded
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • AkbarCloneAkbarClone Posts: 2,476 ✭✭✭
    As shagrotn mentioned, all the modern players have multiple rookie cards. There is no one "true rookie" for any of them--you can usually have mixed views on "most desired rookiie card" or look at sales to find "most valuable". Here is a thread on Ichiro Rookie Cards
    I collect Vintage Cards, Commemorative Sets, and way too many vintage and modern player collections in Baseball (180 players), Football (175 players), and Basketball (87 players). Also have a Dallas Cowboy team collection.
  • ClemazClemaz Posts: 1,422
    Thanks for your help. Please excuse my ignorence, but was does "sp" stand for?
    image
    Sweet Morsels Toffee and Chocolates
  • artistlostartistlost Posts: 2,242 ✭✭✭
    Kirby Puckett - '84 Fleer Update
    A-Rod - '94 SP
    Derek Jeter - '93 SP
    Jason Bay - 2002 (anything from that year with the Topps Finest Auto being his best)
    Albert Pujols - He has tons of rookies. His best non auto, jersey rookie is 2001 SP.
    David Wright - 2002 (any card from that year with the Bowman Chrome Auto being his best)
    Ryan Howard - 2003 (any card from that year with the Bowman's Best Auto being his best)
    Barry Bonds - '86 Fleer Update
    Ichiro - 2001 (any card from that year with the SPX auto jersey being the best)
    John Smoltz - '88 Fleer Update
    Ivan Rodriguez - '91 Ultra Update edit (here i would search for the 1991 Topps Traded Tiffany card)
    Greg Maddux - '87 Donruss edit (also look for the 1987 Topps Tiffany his best card)
    Frank Thomas - '90 Leaf edit (again look for the 1990 Bowman Tiffany)
    Vernon Wells - '97 (any card again with the Bowman Chrome as his best)
    Mike Piazza - '92 Fleer Update edit (the 1992 Bowman Card also sells just as well)
    Curt Schilling - '89 Donruss
    Jason Giambi - '91 Topps Traded

    That should fill your list for you. PM me if you are in need of anything else or current pricing on the cards.

    mathew
    baseball & hockey junkie

    drugs of choice
    NHL hall of fame rookies
  • artistlostartistlost Posts: 2,242 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Thanks for your help. Please excuse my ignorence, but was does "sp" stand for? >>



    SP is a brand name produced by Upper Deck in the case of the 1994 Alex Rodriguez RC. It can also be a short form for Single/Short Print.

    mathew
    baseball & hockey junkie

    drugs of choice
    NHL hall of fame rookies
  • BigRedMachineBigRedMachine Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭
    The SP for the Arod and Jeter, for example, is just the name brand.

    The company went on the make SP Legendary Cuts, SP Authentic, SP Game Used, etc.

    Every base card from every set for the first year to feature a player is considered a "true" rookie card. As the others have said, some are more valuable and desireable, but they are still rookie cards.

    If, however, 2002 was a players first year and it came out in the standard set, then all parallels (cards numbered, or issued in different subsets) are not considered true rookie cards.

    At least that's the way I think it works.

    shawn
  • ClemazClemaz Posts: 1,422
    Wow,

    Thanks for all the help and quick responses. This is a great forum, and it is nice to see that there are people out there in this hobby who are so willing to share their knowledge with others. The list I gave was off the top of my head, If anyone else knows of where I could find a full list I would appreciate it.( I know there may be to many players and cards to identify)
    image
    Sweet Morsels Toffee and Chocolates
  • BigRedMachineBigRedMachine Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Thanks for your help. Please excuse my ignorence, but was does "sp" stand for? >>



    SP is a brand name produced by Upper Deck in the case of the 1994 Alex Rodriguez RC. It can also be a short form for Single/Short Print.

    mathew >>



    Dang Mathew, you beat me too it.

    He's right about the cards though. The only one I could possibly argue with would be the Bonds card. In the 80's, XRC's were looked at a little differently. His 1987 Fleer card is considered his rookie card. It's also listed in Orlando's book as one of the top 200 of all time, and is slightly more valueable too than the 86 update I believe.

    The rest of them I think he hit the nail on the head.

    shawn
  • artistlostartistlost Posts: 2,242 ✭✭✭
    I will agree that the 1987 Fleer (or the 1987 Fleer Glossy) is Bonds best true RC (shagrotn77 had actually listed the XRC rookie before me and I jsut forgot to edit it on my list)

    I good way to find rookies is to either ask us or to take a look at Beckett Baseball Monthly magazine. It can be a little confusing at times but can help stear you in the right direction.

    Or as I say send me an email, artist_lost@hotmail.com, I am a HUGE rookie baseball card nut!

    good luck!

    mathew
    baseball & hockey junkie

    drugs of choice
    NHL hall of fame rookies
  • artistlostartistlost Posts: 2,242 ✭✭✭
    Just to warn you...it can get confusing in the newer cards circa 2003 - present.

    Case in point Nationals RC sensation Ryan Zimmerman (who in my humble opinion is the real deal) has a 2005 Bowman Chrome Draft Auto card which is his first card but not his rookie card. Why? well baseball wanted to even the feild and take away the strangle hold that Bowman/Topps had on the prospect market so they made a bunch of new rules about what is a TRUE rookie card.

    So...in 2006 you will find Zimmerman's true rookie cards but the 2005 Bowman Chrome Autograph (and a slew over others from 2005) are by fare more pricey and always will be...

    So tread carefully...it is an black hole that you may never come out of.

    mathew hodgins
    baseball & hockey junkie

    drugs of choice
    NHL hall of fame rookies
  • danp306danp306 Posts: 80


    << <i>Is there a list or web site where I can find out what baseball cards are the true rookie card? Pre 80's are easy, it's the years when all the mutiple companies started producing cards that I become confused. >>



    I collect RC's for MLB HOF'ers. Pre-war cards are very difficult. How far back are you looking? I use Beckett Baseball Card Digest (Alphabetical Checklist) to determine RC's. For detailed information regarding card sets use: 2007 Standard Catalog of Baseball Cards (Sports Collectors Digest). You can also use vintagecardprices.com for cards pre 1975 (or sometime around there).

    Good Luck.

    Dan
  • NickMNickM Posts: 4,895 ✭✭✭
    Beckett produces a book listing what are rookie cards for each modern player. It's an annual volume, and sells for $20 to $30 IIRC.

    There are differences of opinion with regard to certain player's cards - some don't accept anything that only came in a boxed set, while others will accept it if there was no card issued in a regular set during the same year, while others have an "anything goes" policy. Some people also don't count cards that don't attribute the player to a major league team (e.g., 1985 Topps Olympic subset).

    The "safest" definition is Beckett's, if only because the Beckett branding and advertising makes it widely used.

    Nick
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    Reap the whirlwind.

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  • five7teenfive7teen Posts: 325
    For Wright and Howard, are the '01 Upper Deck Premier Prospects cards not generally considered their "rookie" cards?
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,617 ✭✭✭✭
    Keep in mind too that Tiffanys and Glossys are not mainstream cards, so they are not considered true rookies. That's why I didn't list them. They're more valuable, sure, but not the key mainstream rookie. And Piazza's Fleer Update rookie is without question his key rookie. Bowman's a close second, but the Fleer Update is one of the Topp 200 cards.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,617 ✭✭✭✭
    I gotta disagree (completely) about the Bonds card. I know the '87 Fleer is his most desirable and valuable card (Topps Traded Tiffany and Donruss Opening Day not withstanding), but how in the heck can anyone consider it a true rookie when Bonds had a slew of cards in '86 (Fleer Update, Topps Traded, Donruss Rookies, Sportflics, etc.)??? No way Jose. '87 Fleer is his most expensive card, but NOT his rookie IMO.

    At the end of the day though, there is no right or wrong answer to some of this. A lot of it is personal preference. Some people say that's so and sos most valuable card, so it must be his best rookie. I, like many other collectors, look for the most valuable mainstream card issued for a player in the first year he had cards made.

    This debate also includes Cal Ripken's 1982 Topps and Topps Traded cards. The Topps Traded card is more valuable, and is included in the Top 200 cards set, but the regular Topps issue is the true rookie. We can blame Beckett for a lot of this confusion because of their truly stupid XRC designation. Ugh!!!
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • BigstepBigstep Posts: 209
    Lou Piniella had a multiplayer rookie card in 1964 (167),1968 (16), and 1969 (394). That has to be some kind of record.
  • JeffD27177JeffD27177 Posts: 198


    << <i>For Wright and Howard, are the '01 Upper Deck Premier Prospects cards not generally considered their "rookie" cards? >>



    They are generally considered XRC's, not "true" rookie cards.
  • five7teenfive7teen Posts: 325


    << <i>

    << <i>For Wright and Howard, are the '01 Upper Deck Premier Prospects cards not generally considered their "rookie" cards? >>



    They are generally considered XRC's, not "true" rookie cards. >>



    This brings up an interesting point - are there any instances where a card used for a registry set (say the Hall of Fame RCs) is an "XRC" or are those instances too modern? I typically try to collect a player's first card, and in general, that tends to be his RC, and the one used for sets. If the '01 UD PPs are not considered RCs, and if one of Wright or Howard ends up in the Hall, will those cards not be the ones in the set? Take Pedro Martinez as another example (and much closer to the Hall than Wright or Howard), which of his cards will be the one used in the HOF Rookies set, the '91 UD FE, or the '92 Bowman?

    As far as the discussion as to whether first card or most popular card should be included, I think I would generally be OK either way, as long as it's consistent. While Musial and Spahn both have "RCs" in the '48 Bowman and '48 Leaf sets, the Bowman card is used for Musial, while the Leaf card is used for Spahn - maybe there's something to those issues that I'm missing, or oversimplifying, but it strikes me as inconsistent.

    Good discussion, I'd like to get more opinions on this topic...
  • jackstrawjackstraw Posts: 3,790 ✭✭✭
    Just to add my 2 cents. "SP" stands for super premium when used by the Upper Deck company.

    Collector Focus

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  • ClemazClemaz Posts: 1,422
    Danp,

    I am trying to collect at least one card from every hall of famer. I would love to have all their rookie cards, but I am lucky if I can afford any card from some of the hall of famers. I saw your collection on another thread. Quite impreesive.
    image
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  • NickMNickM Posts: 4,895 ✭✭✭
    I'm one of the people who consider Piazza's best rookie to be '92 Bowman, because the Fleer Update was an update set, and therefore not on the same standing as a major set from the same year.

    Clemaz - for the pre-WWII players, consider picking up the '60 or '61 Fleer cards if you want a relatively inexpensive vintage card of the player. Not everyone is in these 2 sets, but a good portion are. Callahan cards (issued starting in 1950) provide a good way to pick up most of the 19th century players cheaply.

    Nick
    image
    Reap the whirlwind.

    Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
  • gstarlinggstarling Posts: 463 ✭✭
    I disagree with the Maddux Tiffany as his best card.
    His 1987 Donruss is listed in the top 200 cards of all time, and if you are going for rare, try getting his 1987 Leaf version.
    Currently Buying:
    2004 Tommie Harris SPX Printing Plate (White Whale will pay top $$$)
    1994 SP Football Die Cuts PSA 10s
  • ClemazClemaz Posts: 1,422
    Nick-I have some of the 1960 fleer cards you are talking about. Thanks for the tip on the Callahan's. I have never heard of them, I'll have to check them out.
    image
    Sweet Morsels Toffee and Chocolates
  • five7teenfive7teen Posts: 325


    << <i>I disagree with the Maddux Tiffany as his best card.
    His 1987 Donruss is listed in the top 200 cards of all time, and if you are going for rare, try getting his 1987 Leaf version. >>



    If rare was the criteria, the 1987 Cubs David Berg would be his "rookie" card...
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,617 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>This brings up an interesting point - are there any instances where a card used for a registry set (say the Hall of Fame RCs) is an "XRC" or are those instances too modern? >>



    Puckett's '84 Fleer Update card is used in the HOF rookies set, just as it should be.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • GDM67GDM67 Posts: 2,526 ✭✭✭✭
    ^ In that same vein, the Smoltz rookie listed in the PSA All Time Braves set is the 89 Upper Deck.

    You can pick it and the 88 Fleer Update each fairly easily and they're both great cards...just wanted to mention that.
    My Sets
  • five7teenfive7teen Posts: 325


    << <i>

    << <i>This brings up an interesting point - are there any instances where a card used for a registry set (say the Hall of Fame RCs) is an "XRC" or are those instances too modern? >>



    Puckett's '84 Fleer Update card is used in the HOF rookies set, just as it should be. >>



    I agree - is the '84 FU Puckett (and Clemens) considered a RC, or an XRC?
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,617 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I agree - is the '84 FU Puckett (and Clemens) considered a RC, or an XRC? >>



    They're both considered XRC's. God I hate that designation. image
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • five7teenfive7teen Posts: 325


    << <i>

    << <i>I agree - is the '84 FU Puckett (and Clemens) considered a RC, or an XRC? >>



    They're both considered XRC's. God I hate that designation. image >>



    So, is it safe to say that the '91 UD FE will be Pedro's card in the HOF Rookies set, and if they make it there, the '01 UD PP will be the one for Wright and Howard (and yeah, I know, it's a long way for those guys, but it's a useful example). Smoltz seems to be another one...
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