Team Set vs. Set Collector Rant

Morgoth

Why are set collectors starting to list their cards from their full sets in the team set category? Is it to get more free grades? It sucks when there are just team collectors competting with set collectors who could care less about the teams. I feel a majority do it for the free grades or to see their set registry totals pile up. I think you should only be able to list a card in either a team set or a full set.

Rangerman

I totally and energetically agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

djspann

I think set collectors should be able to list their team sets in the team set category, as well as in their full set category. We share this hobby and sometimes our niches overlap. Here are some reasons for listing in both:

1. There's more competition in the registry. If you're a set builder, you can compete against other set builders not just in the complete set, but on subsets (teams). You can also compete against pure team set builders.
2. More free grades are nice.
3. It gives you a sense of progress. e.g. You can be 75% complete on a full set, but have a few team sets fully complete, and it's nice to see 100% on some components of the set you're targeting.


We all compete for the cards through bidding, trading, etc. For example, in any given set, there could be several groups of collectors going after the cards. Their interests will overlap in certain places: set collectors, team collectors, player collectors, HOF collectors, jewish star collectors, MVP collectors, and on and on. So, why exclude team or set collectors from demonstrating the other aspects of their collection? What if a set collector is also a team collector? They'd have to have 2 of each card to list them in both categories if they couldn't overlap.


Doug

Morgoth

One, you are not building a team set your building a full set and just using the team set category to get free grades. Two, I like to communicate and talk to fellow team set builders and now I have to go through the entire list of sets to find the ones just collecting my team as most are just set collectores looking for freebies. Third, I would rather the top team sets be passionate about the team not just a rich set collector. I agree you should have 2 of every card to register for the team and set categories. If someone did that they would demonstrate they at least built a team set only, or maybe 2 full sets but that is kinda rare I think. Lastly it would make PSA more money because it would cut down on bogus free grades and make people have to register more than 1 card, IE buy more and grade more. Lastly, if you are a player collector this isn't as big an issue unless someone has a set registry for every set in the years they made cards for the player. That is stretching it for most collectors so I don't think it is as big an issue. It just sucks for every 1961 Set collector to start registering their sets in both places and clogging up the team set registries.

GDM67

In at least some of these cases, I think some people simply have an enthusiasm for a particular team, which might overlap with a larger set they're collecting.

Davalillo

I also agree that collectors should be able to list their sets where they want to.

Under this reationale, set collectors could not list their sets in player sets, HOF sets, mega-sets etc.

I like listing my sets in all.

PSA has long taken the stance to grow the registry amd let collectors make up and last any set they want which is good for submissions. They would never change this.

I must have listed 25 team sets--hope to do a lot more. I am passionate about every card I collect.

Have never once applied for a free submission--freebies??? Not me.

gregm13

<< <i>In at least some of these cases, I think some people simply have an enthusiasm for a particular team, which might overlap with a larger set they're collecting. >>



Agreed. I'm collecting essentially every set from 1948 to 1989, however I'm also a Miami Dolphins fan so (as stated above) there is an overlap in my collecting goals...

Greg M.

thefootballcardstore

Wouldn't a collector want to register their cards in all the sets it fits in with?

It seems like it wouldn't matter too much anyhow as Team Set Collectors would have the advantage anyhow because they are more focused and would probably pay more for a card they need specifically for a team subset vs the master set collector.

I think the term subset itself sums it up.

Rangerman

Jeremy-- I think you are in error---- team sets are not sub sets of other sets. There are Team Sets and there are Company Sets. There are other sets as well---- none sub sets of others.

Team set builders are more fervent for for their particular team/franchise------- for many and all reasons. A frustration I have is putting together all the sets and checklists with weghting and then with little effort by Set Collectors ------- they are allowed to just jump in and get free grades for building a set that they have already built.

Davalillo

Guys,

I know a number of people who list their sets under each--trust me on this--noone cares about the free grades--I did not even know they existed.

djspann

<< <i>One, you are not building a team set your building a full set and just using the team set category to get free grades. Two, I like to communicate and talk to fellow team set builders and now I have to go through the entire list of sets to find the ones just collecting my team as most are just set collectores looking for freebies. Third, I would rather the top team sets be passionate about the team not just a rich set collector. I agree you should have 2 of every card to register for the team and set categories. If someone did that they would demonstrate they at least built a team set only, or maybe 2 full sets but that is kinda rare I think. Lastly it would make PSA more money because it would cut down on bogus free grades and make people have to register more than 1 card, IE buy more and grade more. Lastly, if you are a player collector this isn't as big an issue unless someone has a set registry for every set in the years they made cards for the player. That is stretching it for most collectors so I don't think it is as big an issue. It just sucks for every 1961 Set collector to start registering their sets in both places and clogging up the team set registries. >>



Did you even read my post? You didn't respond to any of the items in my list, and just complained more. I'll respond to your comments:

- Some may not be team collectors, others are. If not, there are still items #1 and #3 in my list to support adding in both places.
- Why do you fault someone for trying to save money and use the free grades? Do you take advantage of monthly specials, or just pay full price all the time?
- I'm sure you can still find team set builders.
- Regarding "rich set collectors", I assume that most people collect within their means. Some can afford the highest graded examples of every card, others can't or don't want to spend the money. Personally, I have sets where I go for 3's or 4's, others where I go for 5's and 6's, and some where I can afford some 7's. There isn't a single set that I collect where I can even hope to be #1 in. I doubt I'll even crack the top 5 in any of my sets.
- I agree that it would make more money for PSA, but it doesn't mean that it is the correct thing to do.
- If you are a player collector, you'll run into team builders in every issue of the player you're going after. The people may change year to year, but there will always be competition.


Doug

lostdart58

<< <i>Guys,

I know a number of people who list their sets under each--trust me on this--noone cares about the free grades--I did not even know they existed. >>



YOU don't need to know they existed..........saving a few dollars is OK in my books.........and that is why I list the team sets.......plus it is the only chance for me to get one of those silly Best of the Registry awards.

thefootballcardstore

Yes it seems the free grades is coming up a lot as a reason for doing this. I also knew nothing about free grades.

djspann

<< <i>Jeremy-- I think you are in error---- team sets are not sub sets of other sets. There are Team Sets and there are Company Sets. There are other sets as well---- none sub sets of others.

Team set builders are more fervent for for their particular team/franchise------- for many and all reasons. A frustration I have is putting together all the sets and checklists with weghting and then with little effort by Set Collectors ------- they are allowed to just jump in and get free grades for building a set that they have already built. >>




In most cases, team sets are without question subsets of "company" sets. As Jeremy showed, a subset is "a set that is a part of a larger set." Hence, if a company set contains all of the cards that make up a team set, the team set is by definition a subset of the company set. So, the only possible time that a team set is not a subset of a larger set is when no larger set contains all cards within the team set.

I do agree that team set builders are more fervent for their particular team. A clear side effect of this is that certain cards that are part of a team set command a premium price, because so many team collectors seek these cards. Take for example vintage football cards of Packer players. These cards usually command more money, whether they are a HOFer or only a common, simply because there are so many Packer team set builders.


Doug

Rangerman

(In most cases, team sets are without question subsets of "company" sets. As Jeremy showed, a subset is "a set that is a part of a larger set." Hence, if a company set contains all of the cards that make up a team set, the team set is by definition a subset of the company set. So, the only possible time that a team set is not a subset of a larger set is when no larger set contains all cards within the team set. )>>>>> I totally disagree . PSA Registry treats each team set as it's own entity, and not derived from or sub to a company set. In fact, most of my Texas Rangers Team sets do in fact have cards in them that are not in the respective year/company set; Traded cards,, and many sets with extensive traded cards sets added result in a different team set than you would find made up only from a year set. <<<<<<< Tony

thefootballcardstore

Good point Doug - same with early 70s Dolphins Cards.

But in any case, PSA promotes and encourages this activity of cross registering cards in various sets. This was one of the improvements in recent years, the "would you like to add this to your team set, player set and specialty set" check boxes.

262Runner

<< <i>A frustration I have is putting together all the sets and checklists with weghting and then with little effort by Set Collectors ------- they are allowed to just jump in and get free grades for building a set that they have already built. >>



Are you trying to make the case that set collectors don't have to search out, bid on, submit or simply purchase these cards. You said it yourself, these are sets they have already built, why not list them? Most of us are collecting cards for enjoyment and like the idea of being able to list our prized possesions in multiple locations. Although I am primarily a set collector, I do have a Pete Rose player collection and a very Large SF Giants collection (not yet listed on the registry)

262

theczar

my sensible solution--BAN EVERY REGISTRY BUT COMPLETE SETS.

you want the best 1975 buffalo sabres set or the best 1988 atlanta hawks set, fine we are proud of you but keep it to yourself. this doesn't even touch the chet lemon, bill campbell or pepe frias registry's. now they want registry's for players rookie cards.

Set collectors of the world unite and revolt. Clog up every registry you can with as many cards as you can. You spent time and money to put these collections together. You are the ones having to bid against these psychos that are chasing 20 card sets or less while you are trying to put a 500, 600 or 700 card set together. These small set collectors are like c-ckroaches coming out of the woodwork to spend big bucks on one card. There are so many of them to bid against as they overpay time and time again while you struggle to complete your monumental set.

Morgoth

Man I hope you are kidding with that post. As to any prior posts I never feel any responsibility to "respond" to somebody's post just because they post a response to mine. It is a mixture of laziness and avoidance of a flame war so don't take it personally. I seriously doubt that many of the set collectors are passionate about every team set that presides in their complete set. Registering more of them to just show them off seems to be a bit of an ego trip. I never complained about the competition it is the registering of the same cards over and over that is my complaint. If someone built a great team set and a great complete set independent of one another then that guy gets my utmost attaboy.

theczar

Mr. Morgoth,
Please allow me to tone it down a notch. I believe there should be a minimum number of cards for a set to be considered in a registry, perhaps at least 100 cards. I have no beefs or concerns about what anyone collects. If you are chasing 19th centrury or 2007, may God Bless you on it. However, the registry program has gone way past common sense. Do we need a Josh Fogg rookie registry or the Peerless Price collection? Right off the bat, not in the HOF, not in a registry. I don't care if it is Jerry Rice, Sidney Crosby or Derek Jeter. No Plaque, no Registry. Next up team sets should be for a decade.

I have not registered in a team set. I can tell you the pain of paying through the nose by going up against a Yankee, Cardinal, Met, Cubs,
Tiger, Twin, Red Sox or Pirate team collector is a WAY WAY more costly to a set collector than any free grading coupon PSA could send me.

Bottom line is PSA is making money off of set collectors and team/player/misc. registries. The more Michael Ray Richardson type registries they can creat the richer they get.

262Runner

Mr. Morgoth,

I have not checked, but I willing to bet that you have the same card in a player set that you do in a team set..... but that would be OK I suppose.

Set collectors are also team and player set collectors, just all of them.

GDM67

<< <i>Do we need a Josh Fogg rookie registry or the Peerless collection? Right off the bat, not in the HOF, not in a registry. I don't care if it is Jerry Rice, Sidney Crosby or Derek Jeter. No Plaque, no Registry. >>

Not sure if I agree with that, but I do think the reverse should be true: if a player is in any sport's HOF, they should have an automatic registry set.

I was more than a little surprised to see the big names who don't have one as of yet when I took a close look a few months ago.

theczar

GDM67,
They can a registry for every HOFer. Take out everyone else.

I'm convinced at lot of these registry's are just man crushes that the collector has on the player.

All of these players who never amounted to much on the major stage who have a registry remind me on 10 cent listing day on E-Bay, just more muck clogging up the system that no one except the lister cares about.

Morgoth

I never said this should be a slippery slope of player sets, vs HOF sets etc. My main beef is that it appears to me is that the only reason for the registering of team sets by the complete set guys is to either get free submissions or to see their name up in lights NOT because they collect that team. I do not doubt that a complete set collector has 1, 2 or even 3 favorite teams they are proud of but to register all 20 something team sets just seams driven by something other than team love. If it was ruled one card per registry I would then have either multiple copies of cards or register the set I liked the most. Czar I have also felt the pain of set collectors bidding up Pirate cards too , hello 61 Joe Gibbon? I think its harsh to kill all of these registries that seem to others to not make sense. I proposed in another thread to have a set registry manager at PSA full time so these issues could be heard. Bottom line is I love my Pirates and I just wish that the people with Pirate team registries were actual fans not just doing it for other reasons.

Morgoth

I was thinking about the player sets and I believe someone else brought this up but if you complete a player or HOF set you dont have other sets completed by default. That is why I don't see player sets as an issue. If you register a complete set by default you had to complete all the team sets in order to do so. If I have 5 Pirates team sets with Clemente in them I do not have a complete Clemente player set. If I have a complete Clemente set I do not have any team sets. They are mutually exclusive to a point (if i had every Pirates team set in the years Clemente played then by default I would have a complete Clemente player set but spread out among many team sets) where as team sets are a part of a complete set.

cravetopps

<<<<I was thinking about the player sets and I believe someone else brought this up but if you complete a player or HOF set you dont have other sets completed by default. That is why I don't see player sets as an issue. If you register a complete set by default you had to complete all the team sets in order to do so. If I have 5 Pirates team sets with Clemente in them I do not have a complete Clemente player set. If I have a complete Clemente set I do not have any team sets. They are mutually exclusive to a point (if i had every Pirates team set in the years Clemente played then by default I would have a complete Clemente player set but spread out among many team sets) where as team sets are a part of a complete set. >>>>>

Here's the greek version of what you said, morgoth, in case someone didn't understand your point.


Óêåöôüìïõí ãéá ôá óýíïëá öïñÝùí êáé ðéóôåýù üôé êÜðïéïò Üëëïò Ýöåñå áõôü åðÜíù áëëÜ åÜí ïëïêëçñþíåôå Ýíáí öïñÝá Þ HOF Ýèåóå dont ïëïêëçñþíåôå Üëëá óýíïëá åî ïñéóìïý. Ãßáõôü äåí âëÝðù ôá óýíïëá öïñÝùí ùò æÞôçìá. ÅÜí êáôá÷ùñåßôå Ýíá ðëÞñåò óýíïëï åî ïñéóìïý Ýðñåðå íá ïëïêëçñþóåôå üëá ôá óýíïëá ïìÜäùí ðñïêåéìÝíïõ íá êÜíåôå Ýôóé. ÅÜí Ý÷ù 5 óýíïëá ïìÜäùí ðåéñáôþí ìå Clemente óå ôïõò äåí èÝôù Ýíáí ðëÞñç ðáßêôç Clemente. ÅÜí èÝôù Ýíá ðëÞñåò Clemente äåí Ý÷ù ïðïéáäÞðïôå óýíïëá ïìÜäùí. Áöïñïýí áðëïêëåéóôéêÜ êáé ìüíï áìïéâáßá Ýíá óçìåßï (åÜí Ýèåóá êÜèå ïìÜäá ðåéñáôþí óôá Ýôç Clemente ðïõ ðáß÷ôçêå Ýðåéôá åî ïñéóìïý åãþ èá äéÝäéäá Ýíáí ðëÞñç ðáßêôç Clemente êáèïñéóìÝíï áëëÜ Ýîù ìåôáîý ðïëëþí óõíüëùí ïìÜäù&iacute üðïõ ùò ïìÜäá ôá óýíïëá åßíáé Ýíá ìÝñïò åíüò ðëÞñïõò óõíüëïõ.

GDM67

<< <i>I'm convinced at lot of these registry's are just man crushes that the collector has on the player. >>

That's probably true. It also means that someone has a mancrush on Jon Kitna.

Some of these are puzzlers, but at the same time, I know what it's like to like a semi-obscure player. And I think that most of the people who have sets registered just want to crow a bit about accomplishing their goal.

<< <i>I do not doubt that a complete set collector has 1, 2 or even 3 favorite teams they are proud of but to register all 20 something team sets just seams driven by something other than team love. >>

Okay, that I'll go along with.

mealeworm

I collect complete sets and Team sets and Player sets as well. Where does that leave me??? I also try to pick up 57 Pirates cards in higher grade than other teams from the 57 set, which I collect the basic and master sets. I don't see the problem listing them any and everywhere you can. If complete set guys are knocking you out of that top spot pony up and a buy some higher grade cards.

Because at the end of the day it probably has something to do with a slow but steady drop from the ranks of the registry due to complete set studs doing alittle data entry.

Dave

Morgoth

Again my issue is that these registries are not about collecting team sets its about ego or freebies most of the time. If you complete a full set of cards by default you have all the team sets. You should not be able to get double rewards, double mint gum or a Joe Orlando signed 8X10. On the issue of money, I have said that I would pony up the money for 2 versions of the card if I wanted it registered in a complete set and a team set. I just would like to see the team sets populated by people collecting the team not just a byproduct of another set they are doing.

jradke4

I understand your point and somewhat agree. I see a lot of redunacny in the set registry. Take football for example. The guy that has the #1 HOF RC card set is also going to in all likey hood, then have the #1 set in most of the following set. the all decade teams, nfl 75th annvs. team, all time Rbs, all time Qb's, all time defense, all time recievers. so what does he get, more pieces of paper and a few free grades. I could see that if someone only collected say the 75th anni. team might have a gripe...but most of us in the football sets are doing all the sets as well. i dont see a need to have to have say 4 different high end jim brown rcs.

its the same for player sets....ie basic vs master.

i can understand your feelings on the team sets though. i am a diehard packer fan. if i was going to go for the team sets i would probably be pissed if the #1 57 Topps set guy lists his ultra fine packers cards under the team set. but you can never tell someones true intentions. i know you want show your true support for your team and feel that many others on the team sets dont feel the same about the team but only the cards.

psa has us all hooked into the competitive nature of this, almost like the ebay trick of you "won" the item. you didnt win it you just bid the highest. and i can see how people can be upset that someone else's competitiveness is moving in on their passion. i like to see the set registry as a place where i can show off my collection to others that enjoy cards. yes i want to have the best favre set...will i...probably not but i will come close. so i have some other sets that are more unique and wider ranging.

softparade

I'm going to enter as many cards as I can into team sets after reading this thread

bxb

I like team sets.

I also like complete year sets.

'Nuff said.

jeffcbay

I use the same cards from my Basic Player Set as I do in my Master Player Set. Am I wrong for doing this? or is this complaint just for the people collecting complete/team sets?

In my opinion, I think they should be able to use the same cards for both complete and team sets. Benefits the collector if they get free subs for it. I would do the same thing. I understand your complaint, but unfortunately there's not much that can be done about it.

TheVon

Morgoth,

While I think your thesis has some merit (that people should only be able to list a card in either a team set or a full set) I feel like there are more problems than answers with such a rule. As others have mentioned, if you can only post one card per set, you are basically discriminating against those with broader collective tastes than yourself.

I also feel that your complaint about the effort of having to look through sets because you like to talk to other team set builders to be selfish and/or lazy. Why not just post a thread on these message boards if you’re looking for conversation?

While it would be nice to think that everyone at the top of a registry is passionate about their collection, I wonder how you would propose judging that? Just mandating that a card can’t be placed in both a full set and a team set won’t keep someone from having team sets that they dispassionately collect because they’ve got disposable income or because they like to have the satisfaction of being #1 on a list. Even hiring a set registry manager would prove useless in that regard unless you were going to require some sort of essay or application explaining your reasons for collecting a set.

Aside from all that, there’s another problem I have with the inability to register one card on more than one registry. My problem is that it doesn’t seem fair to make someone who happens to own the only PSA 10 of a particular card go out and buy an inferior card just so they can complete a team set (or full set).

I also think it would be unfair to people who set out to complete a Basic Player Set and later on decide to expand to a Master Set . . . or people who start out collecting a particular team set and then decide they like that issue and expand to a full set. Why should someone have to buy multiple examples of the same cards just to fill a checkmark on a checklist? Surely, you can’t advocate other people having to spend thousands of needless dollars just to make it easier for you to locate other Pirates fans?

Morgoth

I did state if someone did have 2 of a card and registered in both team and complete sets I would be A ok with that. To me that would show that they actually are trying to complete the team set as a goal not just a by product of collecting a full set. If it wasn't for the free grades how many people would take the time to list in both places is my main question? In my opinion it just makes the registry really redundant as it is the same people registered with the same cards in both places. I have no issues with player sets being used in team or complete sets as it takes more than one player to make up a team or complete set. I wasn't advocating a Set Register manager for this issue but mainly for the reason of managing what cards are in the registries, starting new registries or ending ones that don't make any sense or are obsolete. There is little rhyme or reason why cards are selected in registries sometimes. Nice to see passionate debate w/o someone calling me names yet

TheVon

<< <i>If it wasn't for the free grades how many people would take the time to list in both places is my main question? >>



I know that if it wasn't for the free grading I wouldn't have registered my team sets. But now that I have registered them, it takes hardly any extra effort to keep them updated. When I enter new cards into my full set all I have to do is click a little box that says I also want to include that card in my team sets or player sets and then I just have to validate that set.

I understand what you're saying though. It's inconvenient for you this way and it clutters things. But you have to understand that as long as PSA offers free grades for team sets this is going to be the way it is. Frankly, I love that PSA does this because I need all the help I can get and what's more fun than getting free grading?

Morgoth

I agree the free grades are cool and more power to anyone for free stuff. But I am glad someone did say they only put their team sets in for that reason. I sure understand why someone would. It just in my opinion detracts from the ones collecting the team sets only and not as a subset of their main set. I can also see someone starting with a basic set then getting into their team sets so it's not a black and white issue. Again it's a rant and not always logical.

bri2327

<< <i>I'm going to enter as many cards as I can into team sets after reading this thread >>

Rangerman

<< <i>

<< <i>I'm going to enter as many cards as I can into team sets after reading this thread >>





BRING IT

Fuzz

Morgoth,
Rant away. That's what we are all here for.
We collect mostly different things so we have not run across each other yet. In my world (60's FB) it is almost all about the ego. This is dominated by a small number of individuals for whom money is not a primary factor. Guys that spend $10K+ each and every month and more if a big auction hits. There are some great team set guys there too but they have to put with the others.
For me and Skywalker (and probably Dav and a few others), we are here to fight the empire. Not an easy task for a small group of rebels. Figuring that Dav (a PSA HOF collection) and MOSH (a PSA yearly award winner many times over) play there, there is not a lot of room for anyone else. These guys count yearly awards by the dozens. Sucsessful men with sucsessful careers. Of course there are egos involved otherwise they wouldn't be where they are in life. Doesn't leave a lot of room but other guys have made there own space. The war has spilled over into team sets. Sorry to all the team set only guys who are innocent victims in this but we fight where we fight. If you collection is worth more than your house, then it IS about the ego.
We are guilty and have ruined the sandbox for the other kids.
Fuzz

PS. I do have a set that I have won several yearly awards. It is not the best set of it's type. I am 100% certain of this. I get significant less satisfaction from this award each year because I don't deserve it. I know it. They know it. I look at it as a gift. I suspec that most of us would think less of an award of this type. If that is true, then every set collector should register in every team set. Let the real best group win.

drewsef

heaven forbid someone get a couple of cards graded for free, it's not like they support PSA or anything either with all of those other PSA cards they own.