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What do you think should be done with altered cards?
SportscardProject
Posts: 20
Trimming seemed to be a big problem in the sportscard hobby in the '80s and '90s and seemed to go away when the grading companies emerged.
I know that PSA will slab very old and rare altered cards and label them "authentic", which I believe is a good thing for very rare cards.
However, they don't seem to do that for newer cards. This may sound a bit radical, but for 60's cards and newer and especially the commons, I believe those altered cards should be destroyed. Cards from those years are not that hard to find in decent condition and keeping trimmed cards in circulation will only mean someone else will be scammed down the road. One other option is stamping "altered" on the reverse side.
What do you think?
I know that PSA will slab very old and rare altered cards and label them "authentic", which I believe is a good thing for very rare cards.
However, they don't seem to do that for newer cards. This may sound a bit radical, but for 60's cards and newer and especially the commons, I believe those altered cards should be destroyed. Cards from those years are not that hard to find in decent condition and keeping trimmed cards in circulation will only mean someone else will be scammed down the road. One other option is stamping "altered" on the reverse side.
What do you think?
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Since condition is out of the question, then rarity should be the deciding factor.
If its rare or very expensive ...it should be graded authentic.
If its easy to find ...then i guess burning them would be ok.
Groucho Marx
I agree. The owner should stamp it and I agree with your second point. Grading is not an exact science.
Seeking primarily PSA graded pre-war "type" cards
My PSA Registry Sets
34 Goudey, 75 Topps Mini, Hall of Fame Complete Set, 1985 Topps Tiffany, Hall of Fame Players Complete Set
The problem is when and if I ever decide to sell these sets. I would then again have to disclose that a few cards had returned from PSA as trimmed. I also have included cards from PSA 5 or 6 holders that I crack out and use for my raw sets, should I disclose that as well? I will most likely NEVER, NEVER sell these sets, however it is an interesting question.
Just a thought.
262
Collecting all cards - Gus Zernial
Post Cereal both raw and PSA Graded (1961-1963)
www.jamesbondcards.com
www.vintagestarwarscards.com
paul@disc-or-die.com
transparentpunk@hotmail.com
Great suggestion, transparent. We'll do the "old in-out" to the unsuspecting buyer just like Alex and his droogs would have done in what must be your favorite movie.
Seeking primarily PSA graded pre-war "type" cards
My PSA Registry Sets
34 Goudey, 75 Topps Mini, Hall of Fame Complete Set, 1985 Topps Tiffany, Hall of Fame Players Complete Set
<< <i>It's even a more interesting dilemma when you don't agree with PSA. If you don't believe that the cards were actually trimmed, I really can't see you having to disclose to a third party that PSA thought they were... "
Great suggestion, transparent. We'll do the "old in-out" to the unsuspecting buyer just like Alex and his droogs would have done in what must be your favorite movie >>
Some of the folks here on the boards have gotten a card back as "trimmed" when they themselves recently pulled from packs.
If you say in the auction:
"PSA says it was trimmed, but I got it fresh out of a pack, so it couldn't have been trimmed" you're going to sound like a scammer, as folks will likely believe PSA and not you.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>Trimming seemed to be a big problem in the sportscard hobby in the '80s and '90s and seemed to go away when the grading companies emerged. >>
The opposite is the truth. Trimming is big business now that authentication skyrockets the price to the stratosphere.
At this time there's no solution. When grading becomes infallible, it will be possible to enter a detected trim job into a universal data base, not unlike that car history data base that all car dealers have access to. But we ain't there yet.
The idea that a trimmed card should be confiscated by the authenticator just like a stolen credit card is confiscated by the merchant is nice in theory, but the grading process is not impermeable. Authenticators do not reject cards for trimming - they reject them for evidence of trimming.
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
Not so. Trimming/reshaping of cards is more widespread than ever(an epidemic as one president of a grading firm recently called it).There are "card doctors", paper experts and restoration professionals that are very good at what they do.
Mark is correct in all his comments here. My hope is that all the graders of the major companies are highly skilled in detecting this but it is naive to say that altered cards do not do through. Meanwhile I give extra attention to every card I buy and stay away from those dealers I think are suspicious.
Jim
Trimmed cards are no exception.
1. seems to me that as long as the trim removes only that amount of the card that keeps the size within the stated mfg. tolerances, it would be almost impossible to detect unless....
2. there was some way to analyze the exposed side of a card to detect the "freshness" of the cut edge which I would suspect could easily be altered to "fit" the age of the card by the restoration experts
It seems like a solution is a long way off and it would take an enormous investment to have a machine that could analyze the edges of a card in such a way as to detect trimming, i.e. the amount of oxidation, hydrolysis etc. that one would expect on an edge of a card depending on the age. But, maybe it would be an investment the grading companies would be willing to make if they had a "Trim Analysis Card Grade" printed on the slab and an extra fee added to get your card graded with this qualifier.
Crazy idea?
Seeking primarily PSA graded pre-war "type" cards
My PSA Registry Sets
34 Goudey, 75 Topps Mini, Hall of Fame Complete Set, 1985 Topps Tiffany, Hall of Fame Players Complete Set
Mr. Crandell,
Please provide a list of card dealers/sellers that you personally shy away from for whatever reason. Considering your collecting experience, you are a great source for this information. Please post it publicly for everyone. Many thanks.
John Q. P.
The best graders know what the edges of the card should look like(each year of each manufacturer can have its own characteristics). Thus they should without exception be able to tell if an oversized card has been trimmed down to correct size.
House of Cards,
Not only won't I do this publicly but I won't do it privately. A lot is heresay and a lot is based on circumstantial evidence. I just avoid certain sellers because for a certain reason I am uncomfortable.
Jim
I've only had a couple cards ever come back as trimmed so I usually just throw them away. If it was something nicer (like a $50+ card), I'd probably just write "Trimmed" on the back of the card and sell it on ebay. Your really not hurting the value much since it's already almost worthless and your preventing someone else from getting scammed. I'd have to be very sure it was trimmed though first.
Mr. Crandell,
Can you tell us what characteristics you look for in graded cards that send up a red flag for alteration? Thank you
Mr. Houseofcards,
Your questions are sounding like George Stephanopolous.
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
Mr. Morrell,
I am trying to word my questions carefully to Mr. Crandell. I have read his viewpoints on the SGC boards, Network54 boards and here. I would like a few pearls from this knowledgable collector before he escapes to another venue.
J.Q.P.
Jim, btw, it sounds like this house of cards guy is trying to bait you into saying something wrong. I wouldn't even respond to him if I were you.
"Trimming seemed to be a big problem in the sportscard hobby in the '80s and '90s and seemed to go away when the grading companies emerged."
Mr. Crandell responded:
"Not so. Trimming/reshaping of cards is more widespread than ever (an epidemic as one president of a grading firm recently called it). There are "card doctors", paper experts and restoration professionals that are very good at what they do."
My initial statement implied people who buy graded cards should not have to worry about trimmed cards.
Mr. Crandell,
I don't want to put words in your mouth, but are you saying that the amount of trimmed cards getting into holders is worse than it ever was - even before grading companies? This is quite disturbing if this is the case. People in another thread assured me that PSA catches all of the doctored cards, so that submissions with high rejection rates for alterations are not an issue.
I too would appreciate your responses to House of Card's questions. Thank you!
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
Would rather you hear from a true expert such as Kevin Saucier--by the way what is your name?
SportscardProject,
15% as a percent of total too high. Grading companies are the solution not the problem and continue to need to improve their expertise to catch the increasingly sophisticated card "doctors". May I ask your name?
<< <i>People in another thread assured me that PSA catches all of the doctored cards, so that submissions with high rejection rates for alterations are not an issue. >>
Kevin Saucier
<< <i>
<< <i>People in another thread assured me that PSA catches all of the doctored cards, so that submissions with high rejection rates for alterations are not an issue. >>
Kevin Saucier >>
double
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
This one came back "Re-Colored"... say what? Where?
This one came back "Evidence of Trimming"... I don't see it with the scan, but I'll check it when it comes back from PSA.
My question is, should I re-submit these cards or throw them back onto ebay raw? My vote is re-submit.